Project RAM assist

vintagespeed · Aug 11, 2003

I've got a good Chief 2 x 8 ram for my assist, now the problem is where to mount it. I'd like to see pics of ram assist setups and please HOME BREW, I dont need to know how the AGR ram is mounted per the AGR instructions, I want to see REAL FAB. I'm thinking of mounting it off the pitman arm to the pass. side frame rail with a bracket. Which sucks cause I already removed my custom trackbar mount to make room for it on the axle.

Bones · Aug 11, 2003

First off, I have not done the Hydro assist steering yet but I am in the planning stage.
I was trying to figure the same thing out as you. The big factor is your present type of steering.
Are you running a "Y" set up, Over/Under, or high steer set up?

I do know you want the ram as close to parallel to the tierod as possible in your application. I had planned to run mine either off the over the top track bar mount or off the area near the pumpkin though that may change when I do the planned high steer (not sure if going Terra or WJ set up yet).

If you are having problems with mounting West Texas Off Road may be able to help.

Bones :skull1:

BrettM · Aug 11, 2003

First off, this is a mod I have am going to do sometime soon and I have done lots of research for it (there's TONS on PBB) and from everything I've read a 2" cylinder will have lots of power behind it, but won't push fast enough. It is highly reccomended to use a 1" or 1.5" cylinder, especially if it sees street time. Yes, this kinda sucks cause 2x8 cylinders are only about $60 and it is practically impossibe to find a 1.5". West Texas Offroad has them for $150. I still need to go check out some hydraulic shop and see what they have, I've only looked mail order and online so far.

Second, it is much better to mount the ram to the axle so that it is pushing from the axle to the axle. If you mount from frame to pitman arm you are adding additional forces to an already weak area. It is generally reccomended to apply the force closest to where it is needed.

Third, you can find TONS of pictures of homebrew setups at PBB

xjjunkie · Aug 11, 2003

not to be stupid "PBB" ?????

scot

Ghost · Aug 11, 2003

Pirate Bulitin Board?

BrettM · Aug 11, 2003

Ghost said:
Pirate Bulitin Board?

Yep, www.pirate4x4.com/forum

If you go over there and register, please do lots of searching and make use of their Newbie forum. They like to keep the tech to a very high level and get ticked when people ask questions that have been asked many times before. I know Hydro Assist has been covered in about every way, shape and form, so just search.

vintagespeed · Aug 12, 2003

Been on pirate for a few years now, prefer to get XJ tech from XJ guys........

I had heard about the slower response with the 2x8 but I'm hoping it wont be too big of an issue on the street. I needed the larger dia. to turn the 38s in the rocks.

Steering is hi-steer on a D44 w/flat top knuckles, the frame is plated with the SBS from ORGS. The hi-steer presents more challenge because the tie-rod will be so high above the axle.

BrettM · Aug 12, 2003

post a picture of your front axle and then we can draw different ideas on it. I have a D44 and will be running hi-steer when I do my hydro assist and I dont' think it will be too much problem, but then again I have leaves.

One thing I've been thinkin about in order to use a 2" cylinder is to mount it on more of an angle (not so parallel to the axle tube and tie-rod). This will effectively make the ram quicker and less powerful, kinda like a 1.5". My main concern with this is that I don't want it to push too hard on the tie-rod and bend it, so I'll have to make my tie-rod real thick.

As far as wanting the extra strength of a 2" for your 38s, that really isn't an issue. Go search around on PBB and you will hear of many guys saying they have 1 finger steering with 40s using a 1.5" cylinder.

Again I say it is a very bad idea to do this mounted to the "frame"...

I can understand wanting to post XJ tech on NAXJA

as this is certainly the best, most knowledgable group around for XJs. However, hydro-assist has very little to do with XJs and has only ever been done on a handful of XJs. You would be much better off posting (or just searching) over on PBB. Ask what people think of mounting from frame to pitman, I'm sure many people will advise you not to.

Goatman · Aug 12, 2003

This months issue of JP magazine, the one with Farmer Matt's XJ featured in it, has an article about a VERY cool CJ. It is extremely well built, and it has the hydraulic cylinder running from the frame to the pitman arm. The frame would have to strong enough, and I agree that the force could be best applied against the axle housing, but this is a very well designed rig and he's making it work. I think it's a very interesting design concept, and worth thinking through.

My box is tapped for the hydraulic fittings, just need to get a cylinder and hoses to hook it up. I also need to figure out where on the D44 to mount it.

I don't get the comment about mounting the ram on an angle, I don't see how that would make it faster. It definitely would increase the risk of bending the tie rod.

BrettM · Aug 12, 2003

As for mounting the ram from frame to pitman, I have not doubt it would work, the question is for how long? the uni-body isn't as bad as some people think, but don't kid yourself, it's not the best. Also, think of all the extra force you are putting through your draglink, wouldnt' you rather have that pushing just on the tie-rod where it is needed. Also, also, if you have a tire up against a rock and keep turning into it, there will be a TON of force going through your trackbar (or however you keep your axle located laterally). If you have the ram on the axle to tie-rod, then the axle is mostly pushing against itself and not through the trackbar.

Goatman said:
I don't get the comment about mounting the ram on an angle, I don't see how that would make it faster. It definitely would increase the risk of bending the tie rod.

with the ram parallel to the axle and tie-rod, 1 inch of ram travel equals 1 inch of tie-rod travel. by placing the ram on an angle, you could make .75 inch of travel at the ram equal 1 inch of travel at the tie-rod. effectively this would make the ram faster and less powerful.

you would have to play with the angle to get the right balance, and hopefully it would be a pretty shallow angle, maybe 10 degrees, so that you don't bend your tie-rod. I think I will try this when I set mine up, I'll play with the angles until it is right, and I'll make the tie-rod BEEFY, like 1.5" quarter wall or better. If the angle is at all extreme I will abandon the idea and get a 1.5" cylinder, but I have a feeling it won't take too much angle to accomplish the desired effect.

I just thought of another problem with the putting the ram on an angle; the angle would change through it's motion and therefore change the power to speed ratio from left to right. Again, if the static angle was kept down, I think this would not even be noticable.

brett

Goatman · Aug 13, 2003

If you think the ram could hurt the frame, what's it going to do to that tie rod if mounted at an angle to it?

vintagespeed · Aug 13, 2003

I'm still on the fence, although the point about the TB taking more load with the ram on the pitman makes some sense to me. That CJ in Jp rag has a floating steering setup to allow no bumpsteer throughout the axle's range of motion. I really think this is slick & I've seen them done before, but need to do more research. It could make the inverted triangulated 3link and mechanical steering a reality. For a super beefy TR, sleeve 1.25 x .250 with 1.75 x .250 DOM, if you bend that you're having too much fun. I bent my 1.25 x .344 DOM TR, not really a bend more of a minor bow.

4ward · Aug 13, 2003

So, you'd rather break knuckles than bend your tierod?????

I run 1.5" .25"wall DOM and I've cracked a knuckle already because of this.

Goatman · Aug 13, 2003

OneTonXJ said:
I run 1.5" .25"wall DOM and I've cracked a knuckle already because of this.

Are you sure it was the knuckle, or was it your head?

When it comes to breakage, you're in a different league than most...............

I'd be afraid of breaking a bolt or heim joint with a 1/2" thick tie rod, but I guess it wouldn't bend.

vintagespeed · Aug 13, 2003

OneTonXJ said:
So, you'd rather break knuckles than bend your tierod?????

Well no, that'd be silly.

I certainly would prefer to bend the TR before cracking/breaking a knuckle. One of the replies mentioned a crazy angled approach to the TR with the ram and using a super beefy TR, so I replied with my recipe for beef. I'm using 1.25 x .311 this time around, which is not as overkill as 1.5 x .250.

Seriously though, I've heard alot mentioned about your rig OneTon you have a site with pics or anything?

BrettM · Aug 13, 2003

let me restate that I would not even consider running a ram with any significant angle on it. I am thinking that a small angle may help.

As for the frame mounting deal, I don't see the frame strength as the biggest problem... what I really don't like is the huge side forces sent through your trackbar, wishbone, or leaves (whatever you got). Keep those forces on the axle as much as possible.

Make that ram fit on the axle, post a pic of your front end so we can toy with different ideas.

ashmanjeepxj · Feb 2, 2004

Old thread Back from the dead...

Ok I searched on NAXJ and this is one of the few Hydraulic ram threads..
The Angle Mounted ram and Mounting to the draglink has been covered, so lets move on or agree to disagree. DONE.

Other research:

Performance Steering Tech on Pirate, double ended ram: "STATIONS stuff"
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index3.html

How to increase flow and pressure from the stock jeep steering pump:
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html
(its reccomended to also add a tranny cooler when doing this flow mod)

How to drill an tap your Stock jeep steeting box, (gear box) for hydraulic lines for either a single or double ended ram assis.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/HydroAssistTap/index.html

I want to talk about RAMS....
What brand rams have you guys tried?

Im looked into the single ended rams and double ended rams, the double ended rams are better, they replace the tierod, and often are more linear then a single ended ram, meaning they are the same speed and strength for left and right hand turns. The double ended rams can be used for assist or full hydro and so can a single ram.

On my jeep I dont have clearance for a double ended ram, so it will be a single. I also drive on the street so Im not doing full hydro, only assist.

I have a 79 F350 D60 full width, with tierod in factory location. The easiest configuration for me will be a single ended ram mounted to the axle and bolted to the tierod using Ubolt straps. I want a 1.5in bore 8in stroke double acting single ended ram.

so now where to get the ram..

West texas offroad, the redneck ram, $240 total. (1.5" RAM - $150.00, 5/8" HARDWARE KIT(BOLTS, WASHERS, WELD TABS, AND LOCK NUTS), $25.00
5/8" HEIM ENDS $20.00, SET OF HOSES $45.00)
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/hydrosteering.html

Rockstomper, $225 (Ram, hydro lines, heims, nuts, tabs.)
http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/steering/ramassist.htm

Surplus Center, $83 (ram only 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shaft)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020214051972&item=9-4410-08&catname=hydraulic

Surpuls Center, $86 (Ram only, 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 1in shaft)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020214051972&item=9-4872-08&catname=hydraulic

Surplus Center $109 double ended ram, 2.25 bore, 10.25in stroke, 1.5in shaft, would require a new pump for more volume to move this bigger bore fast enough.
This ram installed: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=200085

So far the Surplus center $86 ram looks best, or the one from Scott (rockstomper) for alittle more.

any other vendors you guys know prices on?

Thanks,

JeepFreak21 · Feb 2, 2004

Damn Ashman! That was about worth the resuscitation

Good stuff!
Billy

ashmanjeepxj said:
Old thread Back from the dead...

Ok I searched on NAXJ and this is one of the few Hydraulic ram threads..
The Angle Mounted ram and Mounting to the draglink has been covered, so lets move on or agree to disagree. DONE.

Other research:

Performance Steering Tech on Pirate, double ended ram: "STATIONS stuff"
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index3.html

How to increase flow and pressure from the stock jeep steering pump:
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html
(its reccomended to also add a tranny cooler when doing this flow mod)

How to drill an tap your Stock jeep steeting box, (gear box) for hydraulic lines for either a single or double ended ram assis.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/HydroAssistTap/index.html

I want to talk about RAMS....
What brand rams have you guys tried?

Im looked into the single ended rams and double ended rams, the double ended rams are better, they replace the tierod, and often are more linear then a single ended ram, meaning they are the same speed and strength for left and right hand turns. The double ended rams can be used for assist or full hydro and so can a single ram.

On my jeep I dont have clearance for a double ended ram, so it will be a single. I also drive on the street so Im not doing full hydro, only assist.

I have a 79 F350 D60 full width, with tierod in factory location. The easiest configuration for me will be a single ended ram mounted to the axle and bolted to the tierod using Ubolt straps. I want a 1.5in bore 8in stroke double acting single ended ram.

so now where to get the ram..

West texas offroad, the redneck ram, $240 total. (1.5" RAM - $150.00, 5/8" HARDWARE KIT(BOLTS, WASHERS, WELD TABS, AND LOCK NUTS), $25.00
5/8" HEIM ENDS $20.00, SET OF HOSES $45.00)
http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/hydrosteering.html

Rockstomper, $225 (Ram, hydro lines, heims, nuts, tabs.)
http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/steering/ramassist.htm

Surplus Center, $83 (ram only 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shaft)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020214051972&item=9-4410-08&catname=hydraulic

Surpuls Center, $86 (Ram only, 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 1in shaft)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020214051972&item=9-4872-08&catname=hydraulic

Surplus Center $109 double ended ram, 2.25 bore, 10.25in stroke, 1.5in shaft, would require a new pump for more volume to move this bigger bore fast enough.
This ram installed: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=200085

So far the Surplus center $86 ram looks best, or the one from Scott (rockstomper) for alittle more.

any other vendors you guys know prices on?

Thanks,

BrettM · Feb 2, 2004

i've been eyeing both of the surpluscenter rams you are talking about, I am going to get the $83 one for 2 reasons, 1) the shaft is smaller, I don't think I'm going to bend it either way since it's only assist, and a smaller shaft means less difference in push/pull strength and 2) the compressed length is 1.5" shorter, which will just help to fit everything better on my Waggy D44

ashmanjeepxj · Feb 2, 2004

mad maXJ said:
i've been eyeing both of the surpluscenter rams you are talking about, I am going to get the $83 one for 2 reasons, 1) the shaft is smaller, I don't think I'm going to bend it either way since it's only assist, and a smaller shaft means less difference in push/pull strength and 2) the compressed length is 1.5" shorter, which will just help to fit everything better on my Waggy D44

Thats good to know....

Ill do more research at lunch tomarrow.
Post up anything you guys in the night crew find....

Id like to buy something this week.

Project RAM assist

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