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Removal of EGR

jeepinairman

NAXJA Forum User
Location
wichita, kansas
I have been reading this forum now for about a year and this is only my second thread so bear with me....

i have been wondering if i can remove my egr valve completely without causing engine problems...where i live there isnt an emissions test and to my understanding that is all that thing does...and if i can remove it without spending the money to replace it and it doesnt hurt the engine to remove it then i dont see the problem with ditching it...

SO if anyone can tell me how i go about doing that and what i need to adjust after i take it out or if you can tell me if i even can take it out w/o messing up something...thanks for the input
 
First off, removing any emissions equipment is against federal law and NAXJA in no way sanctions this.

My first question is why do you want to remove it? It does not effect mileage or performance. It mainly is used to reduce combustion temperatures to reduce nitrous emissions. Not having it can cause you to run a bit lean and can agrivate the possibility of burning a valve.

Is your valve leaking and causing problems? You can remove it and spray carb cleaner through it to remove excess carbon deposits and it should work again. In the old days we would put a drop of muratic acid in the valve seat area to dislodge the carbon, then rinse it thoroughly.
 
Save the wear on your knuckles, and no-one makes block-offs that work anyhow. Just pull the vacuum hose off of the EGR port, put a plug in the hose and a cap on the valve port, and call it done. That will have the same net effect with all of five minutes' work!

As far as operation, the RENIX computer won't have any trouble (that's how I run mine...) and you might notice a slight increase in power and fuel efficiency. As far as emissions produced, a significant decrease in hydrocarbons (HC) and carbon monoxide (CO) will be noted - they just fail you here in California anyhow if it's not there, not hooked up, or not working. It's supposed to lower combustion temperatures to reduce oxides of nitrogen (NOx) - but those aren't actually tested for, just inferred by EGR function. Don't ask me how I know all this...

Anyhow, that's the short form for what to do. If you are further worried about combustion temperatures after disconnecting the EGR, I've done a couple heavy posts here on cooling the RENIX 4.0 that you might want to search for.

5-90
 
i honestly didnt know that was against federal law....working the the federal goverment i probably should konw that but i didnt....oops my bad on that one

i have just been reading alot on here lately and it seems the thing is a culprit of quiet a few problems and at the age of my jeep (89) its probably about on its last leg..i was just looking for the "cheapest" way out of having to replace it IF and WHEN it goes bad

i pushed on it and from what i gather its supposed to push in a lil ....well mine doesnt hardly move at all....so i was under the assumption it was bad..

i do in fact have a rough idle problem...BUT in the middle of that i am doing the cooling system flush and the dang thermostat housing broke...so tommorrow after work i am headed to my favorite yard to get a replacement and the dealer for a new thermo..then tackle the idle problem..

btw thank you for reading this book.....lol
 
thanks for your help...i am in the middle of building this XJ....i am in the military so i deploy alot so in the past year i have owned my jeep i havent been here much to work on it.....my lift is coming in 2 weeks and i just did the head gasket/had it cleaned and checked, the valve cover gasket and misc vaccum stuff.....i am reading threads on rad changes though cause i am in the middle of flushing mine and she is a dirty one ...i think i am jsut going to get a new one....
 
I second 5-90's suggestion that you just leave it in. It's a tricky little piece of plumbing. If you think it's leaking and causing a rough idle, I'd take it out and give it a good bath in carb cleaner or whatever, make sure it's well closed, and then put it back in.
 
yeah that was what i think i am going to be doing..i was just wondering if i could remove it if need be.....to clean it all i do is remove and shoot card cleaner or similar through it right????...you said to check to make sure it is closed...how do i do that???...i am going to take it off today and clean it and was just wondering how i went about doing that....ya konw as far as testing to make sure it is closed....

thanks again
 
jeepinairman said:
yeah that was what i think i am going to be doing..i was just wondering if i could remove it if need be.....to clean it all i do is remove and shoot card cleaner or similar through it right????...you said to check to make sure it is closed...how do i do that???...i am going to take it off today and clean it and was just wondering how i went about doing that....ya konw as far as testing to make sure it is closed....

thanks again

The valve itself is metal on metal, and I think you'll see when you get it off whether it's closing properly, if it's eroded, etc. There are two varieties of EGR valve, which I think changed in mid-88. The first is one piece, with a back-pressure valve in the diaphragm, and the second has a separate vacuum device. The second type seems prone to sticking partway open sometimes, but can be snapped shut.
 
Jay Welch said:
Blocking them off can cause pinging at highway speeds.

Jay in MA

As a general rule, yes, but on an XJ, not much of a problem because of the knock sensor. I still wouldn't recommend blocking it off if it can be made to work, since it's an emission control and the engine is designed to use it, but it's not so critical for driveability on a Cherokee. My non-egr '95 knocks way more than my egr-blocked 87 ever did.
 
REDIRECT - Matt - what kinds of mileage on the 95? Just wondering if carbon buildup might be an issue, or is it the kind of thing that you'd have to pull the heads to explore further (heat risers and such...)

BACK ON TRACK - To save wear on the parts, I've got the EGR blocked on my 88 and my 89, and if they're pinging, I just don't hear it. I pay attention to the noises in my 88 when I'm driving (mostly to see if it's got anything new to say) and my wife lets me know of ANYTHING amiss in her 89! Like I said, both EGR valves are blocked off from vacuum, and if there's a problem we haven't noticed...

5-90
 
Jay Welch said:
Blocking them off can cause pinging at highway speeds.

Jay in MA

alrighty.....i didnt get to take it off yet to clean it but i did adjust the tps as per instructions found on here ..that works.....idle is GOOD!!!>..but i did find out what type of EGR i have its the one with a seperate vaccum booster i guess is what you would call it...

i want to know what pinging is.....just a pinging sound or is that reference to something else...and why would removing the EGR cause this "pinging"....thanks again guys
 
5-90 said:
REDIRECT - Matt - what kinds of mileage on the 95? Just wondering if carbon buildup might be an issue, or is it the kind of thing that you'd have to pull the heads to explore further (heat risers and such...)

BACK ON TRACK - To save wear on the parts, I've got the EGR blocked on my 88 and my 89, and if they're pinging, I just don't hear it. I pay attention to the noises in my 88 when I'm driving (mostly to see if it's got anything new to say) and my wife lets me know of ANYTHING amiss in her 89! Like I said, both EGR valves are blocked off from vacuum, and if there's a problem we haven't noticed...

5-90

continuing the minor hijack of thread...

My 95 has 223K miles on it, and carbon buildup most certainly is an issue, added to what I suspect is the need for at least an O2 sensor (running a little rich). A good dose of top engine cleaner in the past has helped a lot. I guess it's about due again. My son just got a '96 XJ needing brake work, and my stepson's 93 always needs something, and my poor Heap never gets any attention! I bought new rocker panels for it a month ago and they're still sitting in the barn, and the rear main leak is now spraying the back window, and it's spitting when I lug it in 5th, and there's a mystery draft coming in under the dash so my wife needs a pillow on her legs when it gets cold, and the windshield is still cracked, and it leaks on the shift knob when it rains...no doubt about it, it's reached beater status!
 
REDIRECT -

The "ping" we're talking about is "preignition" or "detonation" - it's where the fuel/air mix is getting lit off before it's supposed to, and is caused by excessive heat retained in the conbustion chamber (caused by things being too hot to begin with or the wrong spark plug) or by the fuel/air mix being too lean (for thermodynamic reasons that would be the subject of another discussion.)

On that note, I don't see how a rich mixture could cause ping - the extra fuel causes a net loss of heat in the system due to the heat needed to evaporate the fuel - from fuel droplets to a true vapour. A lean mixture is FAR more likely to cause ping than a rich one. On that note, I'd think more along the lines of a good sound cleaning of the injector nozzles - either by running a few tankfuls of solvent thru them, or putting the pintle end into an ultrasonic cleaning bath and finding a way to trigger the pintle repeatedly (I guess some sort of timer or multivibrator could be built to do that - any takers from our electronics crew?)

If you can check your mix and verify if it is actually rich, I'd think more along the lines of going to a plug one or two steps colder.

(For the benefit of those of us who are not yet lifelong mechanics, referring to a plug as "hot" or "cold" means the speed with which the spark plug will dissipate heat into the rest of the engine. A "hot" plug has a longer porcelain nose and takes longer to bleed the heat off into the cylinder head casting, while a "cold" plug has a shorter nose and therefore a shorter path for the heat to follow. There is usually a digit in the part number to indicate the relative heat range of the plug, but you'd have to refer to the catalogue for your favourite brand for further explanation there.)

Carbon can be quickly seen to thusly...

1) Unbolt the flange ahead of the catalytic converter and use some method to pull the two pipes apart and out of alignment. You don't want to blow soot into the converter.

2) Disconnect the flexible intake air line from the top of the throttle body and pull it aside (you want the top of the throttle body exposed.

3) Start the engine, and have an assistant hold a fast idle (2000-2500rpm) with the accelerator pedal.

4) With a clean spray bottle full of distilled or R/O filtered water, spray a fine mist into the open throttle body at intervals. Watch the open exhaust pipe for results.

5) When you get no more soot, kill the engine and reassemble everything.

I used to have to do this on cars due to cheap gas, and I probably still do this about twice a year on general principle.

What happens - the water droplets get adsorbed into the carbon deposits upon intake. When the fuel/air mix is ignited, combustion temperatures approach 1000*F. Due to this the water is "flashed" into steam. Since the water is still adsorbed into the carbon, the deposits are blasted off of the various surfaces and blown out of the exhaust pipe. There are vehicles I have done this two where the black cloud I've gotten has scared the owner, but it ran so much better afterward...

The key is not to spray too much water into the intake - you don't need much, and you can always do the job again. You don't have any risk of hydrolocking the block, but why take chances?

5-90
 
I removed mine and blocked it off with a 1/8" plate. All is good no pinging, better gas mileage than you and no chance of it sticking open and not running right. I *might* have felt a slight increase in power but definatly no decrease. I pulled mine after the cat plugged up and stuck the EGR open. New EGR around here was $130.
 
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