Pretty sure I've got camber issues....Among other things

First off, some details....1993 Jeep Cherokee 2.5L, AX-5 Manual and 3" Rough Country lift kit. No SYE or adjustable track bar (yet....)

So, to make a long story short, my front tires keep wearing more on the outside half, worse on the passenger side. I know that's associated with the camber being off, so pretty good bet I need new ball joints, right? Big question is if I should get adjustable/offset ones or not and if so, upper or lower?

She's gonna be getting used a LOT more here pretty soon, which will involve quite a bit of freeway driving. I'm planning to replace all the tie rod ends, ball joints, control arm bushings and anything else I find that's worn out. Already replaced one TRE because the threads got screwed up and the stud just spun inside the housing, I guess you call it. Not to mention I get the death wobble sometimes....

And if anyone has a good recommendation, where should I get the parts from? I'm looking at Moog on RockAuto and Amazon since none of my local parts stores have them in stock. Also found another manufacture called Mevotech Supreme? Anyone heard of them?

Start by having it put on an alignment rack.
That way you know what the numbers are.

I thought I had camber issues by visually looking at that front tires head on they looked tilted in ward at the top....

Turned out to be an illusion because my winch bumper has tapered up swept ends.

Not saying this is your prob just saying to get your suspicions confirmed by an alignment rack
I would think worn out balljoints tend to wear the inside of the tire...Is your toe right? (Read alignment rack part again)

I know my toe is WAY off right now, just haven't had time to get it fixed. Any place you'd highly recommend to get it checked? I'm thinking Les Schwab or America's Tire

Excessive toe in will cause tires to wear on the outer edges also.

Get it put on a rack and post the numbers here so we can help better.

I appreciate it! I've got an appointment tomorrow afternoon at Goodyear for a free alignment check. I'll see if I can get a print out or something....Anyone have them do this in the past, and is it really free? Says "price to be determined after inspection"....

Find a 4x4 shop shop or independent frame and alignment shop that understands, and can deal with, lifted 4x4's. Nearly all retail tire stores are helpless and clueless when dealing with anything that isn't 100% stock.

Install longer lower control arms, and an adjustable track bar.

Use Moog and Spicer parts. Cheap parts are cheap for a reason.

At only three inches of lift I dont see why he would need any of the items you mentioned to fix his tire wear issues....SPOBI

I think the tire wear is the camber issues due to the lift, or bad ball joints. I wasn't able to get in for the alignment check today, but did fix the toe more. Seems to be zeroed out now....Measured 60.5" +/- 1/8" on the front and rear faces of the tire, going from the middle of the tread. Just need to recenter the steering wheel now, but it feels to drive better now.

Your going to hate me for this, but do a search. Your problem has been covered many times before, and there instructions buryed here somewhere about doing your own driveway alignment.

Above all, stop overthinking this, it's not a HP vehicle, it's a Cherokee

-Ron

TwoXJS said:

I think the tire wear is the camber issues due to the lift, or bad ball joints. I wasn't able to get in for the alignment check today, but did fix the toe more. Seems to be zeroed out now....Measured 60.5" +/- 1/8" on the front and rear faces of the tire, going from the middle of the tread. Just need to recenter the steering wheel now, but it feels to drive better now.

Click to expand...

Camber is only adjustable by offset ball joints. It would not change with a lift. If your camber is truly off, then either your axle is bent or your ball joints are shot.

http://jeep-xj.info/HowtoAlignment.htm

One more comment and im done trying to be helpful here

WITHOUT ALIGNMENT NUMBERS ANYTHING ELSE WE SAY HERE IS SPECULATION.

iluv83vettes said:

Camber is only adjustable by offset ball joints. It would not change with a lift. If your camber is truly off, then either your axle is bent or your ball joints are shot.

http://jeep-xj.info/HowtoAlignment.htm

Click to expand...

That's just bad information. Caster, Camber, and Toe In change when you lift a XJ.

Stick to Vettes

Caster and Toe I can understand, but I don't see how camber can be changed since it's controlled by the ball joints, right? I can't see any relation between a lift and camber changes....

As you lift the Jeep the axle housing rotates and the camber changes, compared to 100% stock suspension. Caster and toe-in also change. Since camber is fixed, the source of the tire wear is something else. A lifted XJ should have more toe-in, about 1/16 to 1/8th inch.

outlander said:

At only three inches of lift I dont see why ....

Click to expand...

If the Jeep has symptoms of Death Wobble, new bushings, or better yet new longer lower control arms, and a new track are both potential cures.

3" of lift is where longer lower control arms will benefit the Jeep. While the OP did not mention how the track bar was addressed during the lift, at 3" of lift one should have a longer track bar instead of an adapter bracket, or a re-drilled hole, and adjustable TB is a good idea.

WB9YZU said:

That's just bad information. Caster, Camber, and Toe In change when you lift a XJ.

Stick to Vettes

Click to expand...

Please, all-knowing one, explain how camber is affected and adjusted on an XJ

iluv83vettes said:

Camber is only adjustable by offset ball joints. It would not change with a lift. If your camber is truly off, then either your axle is bent or your ball joints are shot.

Click to expand...

wb9yzu said:

That's just bad information. Caster, Camber, and Toe In change when you lift a XJ.

Click to expand...

iluv83vettes said:

Please, all-knowing one, explain how camber is affected and adjusted on an XJ

Click to expand...

Tim' explanation was spot on.

The relationship between Camber(In/Out top/Bottom) and Caster (The angle from the spindle center to the center of the axle) on a solid axle are fixed at the factory. You can't change one without changing the other using stock parts.

Unlike a A-Frame Suspension, which maintains the same Caster/Camber angles regardless the Compression or rebound of the Suspension, a XJ Suspension is a modified 4 link ( Or Radius if you have Long Arms ).

The Suspension travels though an Arc with the center of the arc being the mounts on the frame.

As the axle moves up, the pinion rotates down in comparison to the static location, and as it goes into droop, the pinion rotates up. Since the Pinion angle has a direct relationship to the Caster and Camber of the Axle, these change also. In comparison to a A Frame Suspension, the linked front suspension has dynamic Caster and Camber.

The FSM gives alignment angle ranges, but they don't mean much as the pinion angle on a Stock XJ is the over-riding factor and everything else is either in range, or it's not as it is set at the factory to the Specifications that Jeep indicated for our vehicle. To adjust Pinion Angle on a Stock XJ, you add or subtract shims from the adjustment points on the Lower Control Arm mounts at the Frame.

When you lift the vehicle, you move the suspension downward though the arc and create a new Static location. When you do so, the Caster, and Camber Changes because you moved down the arc, but did not change the mounting location of the arms. The Toe also changes for 2 reasons, the distance between the drag link, and the mounting point on the tie rod, and the fact that the Camber angle changed.

Thus, as you can see, your statement that the Camber does not Change with Lift is False as is your assertion that if it is off, something must be FUBAR.
The only way it would not change is if you dropped all the control arm mounting points the same exact amount you dropped the axle.

Because the relationship between Caster, Camber and the Pinion angle are fixed, most people who install a lift opt to keep the Caster and Camber within range and sacrifice the pinion angle. Most XJs you see with a lift have either longer Lower Control Arms, or have lengthened the LCAs to rotate the Axle slightly Pinion down. This brings the Caster and Camber back within Factory Range and increases drivability with only a small sacrifice in reliability of the drint DS U-Joint.

There is a range where this works. 2-6" of lift or so. The higher the lift, the larger the pinion/DS angle will need to be to get the Caster/Camber back into range. Because the front drive shaft is a Double Cardan and likes the Pinion U-Joint to run at Zero degrees, creating too large of a front U-Joint angle leads to driveline vibrations.

Adjustable lower joints can aid in adjustment, but there also, they adjust both Caster and Camber. The maximum range is 1 3/4 Degrees. I would only bother if you were a stickler for numbers.

At 3" of Suspension lift, neither the Caster nor Camber should be horribly out of range. If the Caster and/or Camber are out of range, my recommendation is the same as Tim's, ether shim out the Lower Control arm Adjustment or get longer LCA's. Also check the Ball Joints for wear (R&R if bad). It sounds like he has the Toe-In adjusted about right. I use a 1/16" figure myself.

Also, I concur with the early diagnosis of the source of tire scrub being Toe-In related. Unless the Toe was adjusted after doing the lift, it would have too much.

-Ron

WB9YZU said:

Tim' explanation was spot on.

The relationship between Camber(In/Out top/Bottom) and Caster (The angle from the spindle center to the center of the axle) on a solid axle are fixed at the factory. You can't change one without changing the other using stock parts.

When you lift the vehicle, you move the suspension downward though the arc and create a new Static location. When you do so, the Caster, and Camber Changes because you moved down the arc, but did not change the mounting location of the arms. The Toe also changes for 2 reasons, the distance between the drag link, and the mounting point on the tie rod, and the fact that the Camber angle changed.

Thus, as you can see, your statement that the Camber does not Change with Lift is False as is your assertion that if it is off, something must be FUBAR.
The only way it would not change is if you dropped all the control arm mounting points the same exact amount you dropped the axle.

Because the relationship between Caster, Camber and the Pinion angle are fixed, most people who install a lift opt to keep the Caster and Camber within range and sacrifice the pinion angle. Most XJs you see with a lift have either longer Lower Control Arms, or have lengthened the LCAs to rotate the Axle slightly Pinion down. This brings the Caster and Camber back within Factory Range and increases drivability with only a small sacrifice in reliability of the drint DS U-Joint.

There is a range where this works. 2-6" of lift or so. The higher the lift, the larger the pinion/DS angle will need to be to get the Caster/Camber back into range. Because the front drive shaft is a Double Cardan and likes the Pinion U-Joint to run at Zero degrees, creating too large of a front U-Joint angle leads to driveline vibrations.

Adjustable lower joints can aid in adjustment, but there also, they adjust both Caster and Camber. The maximum range is 1 3/4 Degrees. I would only bother if you were a stickler for numbers.

At 3" of Suspension lift, neither the Caster nor Camber should be horribly out of range. If the Caster and/or Camber are out of range, my recommendation is the same as Tim's, ether shim out the Lower Control arm Adjustment or get longer LCA's. Also check the Ball Joints for wear (R&R if bad). It sounds like he has the Toe-In adjusted about right. I use a 1/16" figure myself.

Also, I concur with the early diagnosis of the source of tire scrub being Toe-In related. Unless the Toe was adjusted after doing the lift, it would have too much.

-Ron

Click to expand...

So the only way camber is adjustable independently of caster is through offset ball joints. If you adjust your caster to be correct after lifting, then your camber will be correct. I agree with everything you said except for the last sentence in this paragraph

"Thus, as you can see, your statement that the Camber does not Change with Lift is False as is your assertion that if it is off, something must be FUBAR.
The only way it would not change is if you dropped all the control arm mounting points the same exact amount you dropped the axle."

I'm sorry I was oversimplifying something that can be very confusing to a lot of people. I look at caster and camber as one thing since they are adjusted together in an alignment.

iluv83vettes said:

I agree with everything you said except for the last sentence in this paragraph...

"...
The only way it would not change is if you dropped all the control arm mounting points the same exact amount you dropped the axle."

Click to expand...

I don't think you understood.

If you drop the Axle 3", and at the same time, drop all the frame side mounting points 3". neither the Caster, nor Camber would change.

They can't because you maintained the exact relationship in the arc, the distance to the center of the arc, and the angle of the arms.

Think "Drop Bracket"

-Ron