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Overheater new to the board

HRDWAY1

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Frazier Park, CA
:flamemad: Just bought a 90 XJ w/4.0, did the searchs, 180 thermostat w/bleed hole, good rad flow, new coolant bottle and cap on closed system, bled system too many times, water pump good, can't go 3 miles and she's in the red and puking, running both fans or not, idle or moving, spring in lower hose, yada, yada, yada. Runs like a top, tons of power, no water in oil, or oil in water, just runs HOT no mater what. I've tried all the internet search cures, joined here for help, so HELP!:tear:
 
duh, just noticed you said new.....how long have you had this xj? is this a "new" problem? anybody do a waterpump on it lately and install a standard rotation pump in place of the reverse rotation? overheating that badly, that quickly sounds like a serious circulation problem.
 
How did you purge the air? Apparently, it makes a difference (I just make the system self-purging and call it a day.)

Oddly enough, I've also got a RENIX rig that does not like to have a thermostat installed. Don't know why - I've seen it twice before (in 20-odd years of swinging wrenches) - but it just is. I could put a thermostat in, do everything right, and it overheats. I could change the coolant cut, it overheads. I even tried running it on straight distilled water and RedLine Water Wetter - and it overheated with a thermostat in it.

Probably cost me about $150 to figure out that it just does not like having a thermostat. It's rare, but I've seen it just enough to not call it a "fluke."

The "preferred" method of burping the system seems to be to jack up the rear end of the vehicle, loosen the coolant temperature sensor (driver's side rear of the cylinder head,) and add coolant until you get a steady stream past the CTS. Reinstall the sensor, top off, and lower the rig.

Alternatively (if you're overheating, you'll need a new thermostat anyhow...) when you get the new one, drill two 1/16" or so holes 180* apart, about 1/4" in from the edge of the thermostat - and install it with one hole at 0600 and the other at 1200. The lower hole will pass water, the upper one will pass air, and you won't get a "bubble lock" like can happen with the single bleed hole (even with the "poppet valve.")

5-90
 
Thermostat in or out doesn't matter. drilled bleed hole already. pulled water pump, proper rotation, good impellar. bled system through temp switch 15 times or more, filled system through top hose until ran out sensor hole, filled system through tank out through sensor hole, as many times, front end up or downHasta , now considering gallon of gas and road flare, calling insurance company and having bar-b-que. My YJ never missed a beat.
 
How old is the radiator? I've found that the service life of the OEM RENIX radiator is about 150-180Kmiles - replace that with a Modine or a CSF, and you're golden.

If it overheats without the thermostat, there are two issues - either the engine is generating too much heat (you'd hear a LOT of pinging if that happened...) or the system can't get rid of heat. I'd be almost willing to bet your radiator is plugged.

Don't get OEM - you'll eventually run into the same issue again. Run a flush, then replace the radiator (that way, the old one will take a lot of accumulated crud out with it...)

5-90
 
It has 101k on it, pulled the hoses, runs good flow with garden hose straight through the rad, flushed the block when pump was off, reassembled, filled and bled and it didn't make it 2 miles and blew its top. Not sure if it's the head gasket or if the radiator conversion will due the trick. It sat for a year before I bought it and I drove it about 30 miles with the air on before it erupted the first time and it hasn't made it more than 3 miles since. I'm stumped and been wrenching for over 30 years.
 
at this point, given the info, i'd also vote for a new radiator. makes sense especially with the mileage. i've read a ton of 5-90's posts....he doth know his jeeps.
 
It sounds like an air bubble to me. I have a Renix also and bled it a thousand times. It was one thousand and one that did the trick! I fill up as much antifreeze as I can get in, stick the hose in the coolant tank and take the CTS out and let it flow until the antifreeze comes out. (Front end facing down hill(steep)). Also when you have the radiator "flushed" on the vehicle, you can loosen scale that has built up and clog passages. A new CSF is about $120.00. A good investment.

HTH
Neil
 
HRDWAY1 said:
It has 101k on it, pulled the hoses, runs good flow with garden hose straight through the rad, flushed the block when pump was off, reassembled, filled and bled and it didn't make it 2 miles and blew its top. Not sure if it's the head gasket or if the radiator conversion will due the trick. It sat for a year before I bought it and I drove it about 30 miles with the air on before it erupted the first time and it hasn't made it more than 3 miles since. I'm stumped and been wrenching for over 30 years.

I had a toyota that sat for years and the same thing happened. I flushed and flushed, but every few weeks I'd have to unstop the radiator. Also do the same with the heater core. In fact, try running the heat and see if you even have any. I bet you could also stop up the heater core by running it long enough to circulate the crud.
 
Did it actually boil over or did the gauge go off the scale and you stopped? If the upper rad hose hot (be carefully feeling it)? Can you get heat out of the heater core?

Check the cap on the bottle. For a while, I could not screw mine down tight enough to get a good seal (it would slip). I put a hose clamp around it to hold the threads tighter so I could crank it down more. That worked for me until I was able to replace the bottle and cap.

btw: '88, 4.0L, 165k, still original cooling system
 
Saudade said:
Did it actually boil over or did the gauge go off the scale and you stopped? If the upper rad hose hot (be carefully feeling it)? Can you get heat out of the heater core?

Check the cap on the bottle. For a while, I could not screw mine down tight enough to get a good seal (it would slip). I put a hose clamp around it to hold the threads tighter so I could crank it down more. That worked for me until I was able to replace the bottle and cap.

btw: '88, 4.0L, 165k, still original cooling system
It blows its top. Replaced the tank and cap no difference. read my posts to see the list of stuff I've tried.
 
At this point I'd vote radiator as well. A partially clogged one will still flow but lack the surface area needed for proper cooling.

Take the elect fan out, let it idle until hot (thermo open but not overheat), shut down and carefully feel around the rad fins to see if you can feel a "cool" spot. I know it won't be cool but it may be a lot cooler than other areas.

If you bite on a rad, you might consider converting to an open system.
 
goodburbon said:
Along these lines, could someone point out a good source for the reccomended radiators.

I seem to recall a lot of people call Dirk at DPG for CSF radiators with good results. I just happen to have a local shop (AutoLand, formerly RadiatorLand,) that gets me Modines for Jobber prices.

5-90
 
Before you spend a couple bills on a radiator, take it to your local mechanic and have him do a sniff test on the radiator. That will tell you if you have a leaky head gasket. You can buy a tester for around $40-50 IIRC or have him use his emissions sniffer to test for HC's.

You haven't said how it runs. Have you pulled the plugs to see if it is running way lean?
 
old_man said:
Before you spend a couple bills on a radiator, take it to your local mechanic and have him do a sniff test on the radiator. That will tell you if you have a leaky head gasket. You can buy a tester for around $40-50 IIRC or have him use his emissions sniffer to test for HC's.

You haven't said how it runs. Have you pulled the plugs to see if it is running way lean?
X2

A couple of things, that may help.
Often the junk and deposits are worse just at the outlet. With a dental mirror and a flashlight you can see much of the clog, if present, looking in the outlet. Another tip off is a really hard and swollen intlet hose. You should be able to squeeze it some and have some give, with the motor running and at operating temp. If it's drum tight and swollen, you may have a clogged radiator.
A universal gasket for the thermostat will cause you all sorts of grief, either use an OEM style, make your own (being sure to make the cutout for the heater surge tank hose) or just RTV.
Sounds screwy, but I've seen it too many times to think it that odd, make sure the feeler end of the thermostat is pointed towards the block, most say right on the rim which way to install it. Also the thermostat for the XJ is a low profile type, a common Chev will fit, but if installed just a little wrong, will crush some.
Nothing I can pin down, but if I'd been through all that, I'd sure test for a head gasket leak to see if I'm passing exhaust gasses into the coolant system. I keep a hollowed out spark plug with a tire valve silver soldered, into what used to be the ceramic end. You can also often find compression gauges (not all will, many have a check valve built into the base) that allows you to push some air into a cylinder. Move each cylinder up to the top of the compression stroke and push some air into them, one at a time. If the pressure gets to high the motor will try to turn over, I usually jam a breaker bar and socket onto the harmonic balancer nut (which can come loose) or jam the starter ring on the flex plate. A leaky head gasket and air will bubble up into the surge tank with the cap off, if there is much of a haead gasket leak into the coolant system. Most auto parts places sell the adaptor to push some air into the cylinders, which is a common valve seating test, which also works for head gaskets. If you use a compressor don't overdo the pressure, I often use a bicycle tire pump (foot pump type).
You might also try blowing through the surge tank heater hose hoses and see if they aren't clogged. The thermostat needs the surge tank/heater flow to function properly and be responsive in a timely manner (see proper themrostat gasket mentioned above).
I've seen a leaky head gasket pass enough coolant into a cylinder to actually push some coolant out the exhaust pipe (drops at start up) that stained a white papaer towel the same color as the coolant (green on mine, sometimes red or even yellow or blue). The spark plug often looks rusty on that cylinder and may have deposits on it /which may also be stained the same color as your coolant), depending on the severity of the leak.
Way down on my list of things to check, but something I'll never forget, had a FSJ 360 that would constantly overheat, drove me nuts, just on a whim I hammered on the side of the block, both sides with a hammer and flushed the block out with a garden hose, got a double handfull of casting sand out of the block. never overheated again.
 
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Thanks for all the input. ai'm going to try a open system radiator. My digital pyrometer says that the center of the radiator is twice as hot as the top and bottom, especially on the thermostat side, I believe that after changing the thermostat to a 195 with two bleed holes and running it to overrheating again, only at road speeds, it has to be the radiator.
 
The "closed" system used on RENIX lacks a radiator cap, and the plastic volume tank is a part of the pressure system. Therefore, "closed" (there is no external overflow.)

The "open" system (what most are used to, typical on most cars, and 1991-up XJ) has a radiator cap on the radiator proper, and there is an overflow tank that is NOT a part of the pressure system.

Converting the "closed" system to "open" is of dubious merit - consensus among most of us "old-timers" is that the conversion was done concurrent with a need to change the radiator anyhow, so it's hailed as a panacea for cooling problems. I've got five RENIX rigs - one is converted because I bought it that way (and I might retrofit it to a closed system again...) and the RENIX "closed" system has not a damn thing wrong with it, properly maintained. After all, if the closed system was of little to no merit, would automakers be switching to it?

There are only three issues I can think of with the RENIX "closed" system:
1) OEM radiators. The OEM radiator - or OEMR - has a useful service life of 150-180Kmiles before it starts to clog up. No-one is sure why it does this, and installing an aftermarket radiator seems to solve this (I've got Modines in service in three of my rigs without any trouble - running anywhere from 30K to 120K miles after the swap.) Replace the radiator with an aftermarket replacement for OEM (I like Modine, I've also had good reports on CSF. I just get jobber pricing on Modine...) and be sure to flush the system and change the coolant every two years.

2) "Volume Tank" (that "football" looking thing near the firewall.) I change mine every four years whether it needs it or not. It's also possible to switch to a metal tank that takes a standard pressure cap - I just haven't bothered yet, since I can get the OEMR ones for about $25, with a cap.

3) Air pockets. The RENIX system has a habit of catching air pockets behind the thermostat if you're not careful filling the thing. Searching here will give you two alternate solutions - one being the most effective way to "burp" the system, and the other being my way to make the system self-purging of air. Which you use is up to you.

My RENIX rigs (due to a couple of minor modifications) run around 195*F - down from 210*F. This has also netted me slightly improved fuel mileage and slightly reduced emissions - both of which, I'll take happily. So, while the AMC242 has a design operating temperature of 210-215*F, it's not absolutely necessary to maintain that. It can be reduced slightly with no ill effects.

5-90
 
Did you remove the heater hoses if so you may have hooked them up backwards I did this and my 87 when I replaced the Rad and hoses it over heated real quick and almost blew the recovery bottle just a thought.

PS My Rad was toast had more holes and blocks LOL
Good Luck

Ron
 
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