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A/C Problem

bigrayray

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Portland
I read through a lot of the other A/C posts and haven't found one with symptoms similar to mine. I have 2001 XJ with the A/C blowing hot. I checked the compressor and it seems to be cycling on and off every 3-5 seconds. This made me think that it was low on refrigerant. I put a guage on and the pressure goes up to 45 then drops to about 20 as the compressor cycles. Any suggestions on things I can try to diagnose this or possible an answer to what might be happening? The last few days of 100* heat have not been fun...

Thanks. rayray
 
Not sure if this will help but when I had my XJ charged the guy (who I trust) told me that as little as 2oz too much or 2oz too little 134a would make a system not cool correctly. Before he pulled the vacume and charged mine he took 4oz out of a vette to get it to cool. Being sure you have the right amount of freon in it would be a good starting point. Pardon me if you have alredy done that. Thought I'd mention it since most think (me also) that the more freon the cooler the air. HTH...Al
 
Sounds like the refrigerant level is low.... I've been recharging mine every couple of weeks for the last few months. I know when the refrigerant is too low, the compressor cycles every couple of seconds. The gauge shows similar readings on mine...

Put a recharge kit on it for a minute or two to see if you can get the compressor to stay on longer and go from there...
 
Your symptoms are EXACTLY like so many others. Your problem is you're low on refrigerant.
 
bigrayray said:
...I put a guage on and the pressure goes up to 45 then drops to about 20 as the compressor cycles...
You measure the pressure on the high and low side of the system. One side of the system from the pump is under a lot of pressure, as much 150-225PSI normal operation, the other side of system, from the pump, is under low pressure 15-28PSI normal operation.

When the pressure gets to low on the low side, the evaporator will get too cold and freeze over, so the low pressure cut out switch will switch the compressor off, until pressure builds back up again.

If your low on refrigerant, the pressure will barely build on the high side and the low side the pressure will drop quickly. This will cause the compressor to cycle ever 1-3 seconds.

So did you measure those pressures from the Hi-Side or the Low-Side. If you measured from the hi-side, then that seems normal for being low on refrigerant. If you measured from the low-side, then something is wrong with your system and it might NOT be low on refrigerant.

You have to measure pressure from both sides of the system.

It does sound like you measured it from the hi-side and your just low on refrigerant.
 
Any thoughts on why one would cool great in the evenings, just not when it is hot in the afternoon? When the temps reach around 85, it will cool for about 10-15 minutes before acting like it is freezing up. I never see any ice, it just starts to blow warm. I can cut off the AC for a few minutes and it will work fine, for 10-15 minutes. I have replaced the low pressure cut-off switch per recommendations from others with no luck.
 
I'm not really sure which one I checked. Though one of the previous postings mentioned that the fill hose/gauge combo that comes with the refill kits only fit on the low side. If that's accurate, then I guess I looked at the low side and my problem might not be low refrigerant. The one I connected to was towards the back of the engine compartment, near the firewall, passenger side, right on top. The pressure would build to about 45 or so then drop off to 20 then build again as the compressor cycled.

ray
 
The gauge will not fit on the high side. You have to look at the chart that came with the gauge as the readings vary greatly with the ambient temperature. I have found that those single sided gauges will give you a relative idea of the state of charge at best. I've tried those with a couple of charges and been frustrated. Having said that, an indicated pressure of ~20 psi is almost certainly too low with the compressor running and the can of refrigerant closed.

I did my '93 a couple of weeks ago with outside temperature about ninety and the indicated correct pressure about 45 to 50 (I'm going by memory but that is close.) I gave up on the gauge and just put a can in. It is blowing a bunch of cold air now so I'm satisfied. If low refrigerant is your problem, you will likely need at least a can and a half , at least that has been my experience in the for what it's worth class of advice. Charge it until you are getting nice cold air out of the vents.
 
The evaporators on XJ's suck, designed by accounts, From the book, temp set to cold, fan on high, if it cycles more than 5 times in a minute refrigerant is low. OK, the problem is as R134a leaks out air goes in, air sucks as a refrigerant, then you try to top off the coolant and it won't pull anymore in. The only way to find out is have the system evacuated then refilled with the dye stuff then start using a UV light and look for leaks, I refilled mine with 3 small cans after pulling a vac and getting it right over about a week, I finally saw the stain from the dye coming out of the drain over the frame rail, thats how I found out my evap was bad. I still have not fixed it, I just use the TJ with the top off :D or the wifes grand cherokee.
 
Pelican-

I'm still a bit confused about how this works. Should the low side remain relatively constant or does it drop when the compressor is running and it's just not supposed to drop so low that it cuts off the compressor? Sorry if I'm being dumb about this but I didn't want to add refrigerant and blow up the system.

Thanks,

ray
 
bigrayray said:
Pelican-

I'm still a bit confused about how this works. Should the low side remain relatively constant or does it drop when the compressor is running and it's just not supposed to drop so low that it cuts off the compressor? Sorry if I'm being dumb about this but I didn't want to add refrigerant and blow up the system.

Thanks,

ray
In a nutshell, yes, low side gets lower as compressor runs, but if it gets below about 28psi, the compressor will cut out. Then, as the pressure builds back up, it will kick back on. This just keeps repeating over and over.
While you fill it, it might be handy to put the can of 134a in a small bucket of warm water, to raise the pressure in the can. As the system fills, the can gets cold, lowering its pressure and making it harder to fill the system as you go. Note that as you start filling it, it will really only fill with the compressor running, so it will take a little while to do.
 
First, adding a 13oz can of 134a will not cause your system to blow up. Do wear safety glasses when messing with these things.

You check the pressure with the compressor running and the valve on the can of 134a closed. Your problem is, of course, that your compressor will only run a short period of time before disengaging. I can only tell you what I have done in the past which is to go ahead and charge in one can of 134a. The compressor should begin to stay engaged and you should then be able to get a good reading on the gauge.

If at this point the compressor will not stay engaged, I would guess that you have some problem other than low refrigerant but I am not an expert on this and perhaps some one else will chime in.

I assume you have a table on your gauge that gives the correct pressure for various ambient temperatures. Mine shows 35-45 psi for 75*, 40-50 for 80* and 45-55 for 85-90*.

I don't know about the '96 but the '93 holds 32oz of r12 which translates to roughly 27oz of 134a. We don't know how much residual 134 is in your system but you might need close to two 13oz cans. As far as I know, I have never overcharged one but I guess you can just exhaust a bit if it should happen.

Good luck. Come back if we have missed anything. I see that tommyr has given you some good advice in the meantime.
 
You really can't tell what is going on with the AC system until you have measured both the low side and high side at the same time. You may need to take it to a shop.

The doors that direct the air through the system and out the vents are VACUUM OPERATED. At least on my '95 Jeep, the vacuum fittings were all a mess, and didn't get any cold air from the AC for a while because the vacuum connector that supplies the vacuum to the doors had come disconnected, which resulted in the door moving to a position that blocked any air coming from the system. Might want to check your vacuum connections.

http://home.howstuffworks.com/ac1.htm

Check the link, it explains the basics of an AC system. Remember Junior High Physics, expanding gas absorbs heat energy and makes things around it cooler, as well, a phase change, like liquid evaporating to a vapor does the same. Basically your refrigerant, in liquid form, is allowed into the evaporator (a radiator) where it evaporates and expands, making the evaporator get cold. It expands and moves down the line to the pump, that compresses and pumps it through the system. When you compress a gas it gets hotter, so the pump moves the compressed refrigerant to a condenser (another radiator) that cools the hot compressed refrigerant to the point that it condenses into a liquid, then it moves from the condenser to the evaporator to start the process all over again. The liquid inlet to the evaporator has some sort of metering valve, usually an expansion valve (which is on Jeeps) or an orifice. There is usually a big cylinder in the system that acts like an accumulator for the liquid/gas, plus a filter and drier (a bag of desiccant). The system is under such pressure and heat, that any air or moisture in the system will form acids that will eat up the system, that is why it needs to be vacuumed down before servicing, to remove any air or moisture.

Basically, the pump moves the refrigerant thru the system, where pressure builds up big in the system up to the evaporator, where there is a little orifice that high pressure liquid is sprayed out to expand at low pressure, then in the evaporator all the way up to the suction side of the pump, the pressure stays real low and cool.

The system sitting still, will have the pressure even out to about 50-75 PSI in most systems. When you start running the pump, the high side will go up to 150-225 PSI, depending on the load on the system. The low side will go up and down around 18-28 PSI, usually with the compressor cycling off once or twice a minute to keep the low side pressure from getting to low. If the low side pressure gets to low, the evaporator will go below freezing, and all the condensation will freeze on the evaporator and air won't be able to flow through it.

If your low side pressure is jumping up to 40 psi while the compressor is OFF, then drawing down to 25 psi while the compressor is on, that would actually be normal. Even if the refrigerant level is low, the system will get pressure like this on the low side. The high side pressure will be low, like 80 PSI and the compressor will cycle on and off a lot if your low on refrigerant. If there is a clog in the system, or there is too much refrigerant in the system, the high side pressure will shoot up to 300 PSI and the high pressure switch will cycle the compressor on and off. See, how you really can't tell unless your looking at the pressure on both the hi and low side at the same time.

It sounds like, but you really haven't given us enough information to tell, that your low on refrigerant, and your letting that gauge on the servicing bottle scare you out of adding more refrigerant, because it jumps up higher than you expect.

You have to have the motor running, with the AC on the highest setting. Hook up your servicing bottle, and start adding refrigerant. While adding refrigerant, it will bump up the pressure in the low side of the system, as well, when the compressor cycles off, the pressure will bump up also. Keep adding refrigerant, I've seen the low side pressure jump up to 60 PSI while adding the refrigerant, just keep adding it. 2 signs that you have enough in the system, the compressor will stop cycling on and off, it should only cycle on and off for a few seconds once or twice a minute, and it will cycle off when the low side pressure drops down below 25 PSI, its actually about 18PSI on my Jeep. As well, watch the low side line coming out the evaporator (it will be the larger, cool line coming out of the firewall) just before you reach the proper amount of refrigerant, that low side line will get cool enough, for long enough that water out of the air will condense on the line and the line should be covered in sweat. Once the line is covered in sweat, add another once or two, then stop adding refrigerant. Watch your gauge, it should stay around 18-28 PSI, with the compressor constantly running, if it gets down to 18-24 PSI, the compressor should cycle off and the pressure jump again, once it jumps again, over 24 PSI, the compressor should turn on again. The compressor should NOT go off for more than a few seconds, 2-10 seconds; and it should only cycle off once or twice a minute. Try that and see if the AC works better.
 
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I checked the high side with the A/C running and it was around 65-70. I added a can of r134a and it seems a whole lot better now. The air is blowing at about 45* at the vent and the compressor stays on for about a minute per cycle. Thanks a ton for all your help.

ray
 
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