SAFETY REQUIREMENTS (Must Read)

[Mike in NJ]

Ok guys, we're just about a month away from the greatest XJ Bash ever.

But, as you are welding and wrenching, saving your pennies for the gasoline to make the trip, and otherwise having fantasies about the Utah landscape :cool:, PLEASE REMEMBER that all vehicles that expect to ride with us, MUST meet minimum NAXJA safety standards.

Our first obligation is to make sure that this is a safe event for you, your family, and your fellow drivers.

All vehicles will be inspected prior to participating in any runs for the week. XJ's, MJ's, ZJ's, other wheel based-challenged Jeeps, other :eek: models! If you want to ride with us, you have to at least meet these standards:

1. At least one, visibly charged fire extinguisher (Type B:C, or A:B:C)

2. First Aid Kit

3. Adequate spare tire, Jack, and Lug Wrench

4. Safety belts for driver and any pasengers

5. Adequate attachment points in the front AND rear of the vehicle. Acceptable forms of attachment points are: Tow Hooks of OEM or greater integrity, D-Rings, Shackles or Clevis.

6. At least one, 20ft, 10,000 lb Snatch Strap WITHOUT metal hooks.

7. A properly secured Battery

Missing some of these? Then, get your butt in gear and get some! :) You have a month!

* * * * * *

In addition, we have some SUGGESTIONS for further enhancing the safety and comfort of your ride:

A functioning CB radio - permanent or handheld (This one should actually be a minimum requirement, and it is highly recommended!)

Appropriate Tools

A 2nd Fire Extinguisher

Duct Tape

Rocker Protection or Armor

Skid Plates (at least Transfer Case and Gas Tank)

Tires in Good Condition (especially sidewalls) Note: AT's are usually better than MT's for this terrain.

One Gallon of Water per person

Hi-energy snacks

Critical vehicle fluids (engine oil, ATF, Coolant, Gear Oil) Gasoline only in approved, well mounted EXTERIOR containers. Better choice: make sure you are FULL before you start the trail (Ask me how I know)

Hi-Lift Jack

Spare Parts (especially hoses and belts. Machined parts if you REALLY are concerned)

Tarp, spare rope

Emergency Signaling devices

Detailed Topo Maps / GPS

Change of clothing/shoes, warmer outerwear, blanket.


* * * * * *

The North Atlantic Chapter of NAXJA will be conducting safety inspections during the course of the event, you only need to be inspected once, at the beginning of your stay. Inspected rigs will receive a PASSED sticker that will be looked for by the Trail Leaders before they start their rides. Without that sticker, you cannot participate.

Folks, please take this seriously. We want everybody to have a great (but safe) time in Moab. But please don't be taken by surprise - if you cannot pass our basic safety inspections, you cannot run.

See you in a month or so. :D


Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Beezil]

good post!

and seriously......don't expect to sneak through the checks....Last year Brad did an excellent job with the inspections, and as far as i know, didn't have to disallow anyone to run with the group However, on the last day, some new folks showed up right at the market, hadn't registered or recieved their "formal" inspection. Since these folks decided to run with our group for the day, i performed a check of the new vehicles, and was amazed to discover an extremly important safety feature had been removed entirely from on of the jeeps....

A FRONT BRAKELINE!

Yep, that's right, someone showed up to run Poison Spider/Crack/Gemini with only ONE operating front disc brake....the line on the other side had been pinched off.

I can tell you it really stinks to have to tell someone "NO" but unfortunatly we had no choice. The particular jeeper wisely decided to leave his jeep there at the market and ride shot-gun with the other jeep he was traveling with. He later admitted that he would have made a big mistake by trying to negotiate the various obstacles with only one brake.

Moab is a tremdously fun place to wheel, but it can be incredibly dangerous. Please make sure to follow Naxja's safety requirements, because, even though its stinky.....you will be told "NO".....

[IntrepidXJ]

can i assume the stock battery tie down is sufficient

[Mike in NJ]

THAT is a safe assumption. :)

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Yank(RowlettTX)]

Clear as glass except, what is adequate in the eyes of the spare tire inspector? This leaves room for speculation.

[seanR]

Mike, I have homemade bumpers front and rear. I know the front is good and I am curious about the rear. I think it is OK, but I don't want to travel 1500 miles to be told I can't wheel. For the rear I have 2x4 tube with a 2" reciever and 2 shackels. My question is, I attached it all to the stock mounting on the rear cross member, I think it is suficant (sp) being so close to the 'frame' rails and all, but I have also been told otherwise. I've pulled a loaded car hauler with it several times.

If I bring this in the way it is will you OK it?

Sean

[ChEwBaCcA]

Let me get on my soap box for a min. HAVE a radio , CB radio... I think this should be a requirement. Nothing worse than being on the other side of a blind hill and have a guy come hauling over it w/ you stuck halfway down! If ya have a radio you will know there is a jam or problem around the bends.

The honk of the horn never holds up through out an entire trial ride....people dont signal, not to mention nothing jacks up greenies and hikers more than hearing people honk their horn everytime they clear a blind hill or curve, and i wouldnt blame them it echos like mad out in Moab.

So please clear out the sofa change and spend $50 and get a hand held w/ car charger at least.

Regards , and cant wait
Chewy

[ChiXJeff]

Originally posted by seanR
Mike, I have homemade bumpers front and rear. I know the front is good and I am curious about the rear. I think it is OK, but I don't want to travel 1500 miles to be told I can't wheel. For the rear I have 2x4 tube with a 2" reciever and 2 shackels. My question is, I attached it all to the stock mounting on the rear cross member, I think it is suficant (sp) being so close to the 'frame' rails and all, but I have also been told otherwise. I've pulled a loaded car hauler with it several times.

If I bring this in the way it is will you OK it?

Sean

Caveat: I am NOT on the safety crew. But I do have a couple questions about your rear bumper.

You said stock locations on the rear cross member. Are you talking about the 8 bolts on the vertical surface only? Or have you tied your bumper onto the bottom of the frame rails going forward along the gas tank?

Personally, I wouldn't tow anything if it's only hooked on to the stock 8 fasteners. They're small, and the mounting surface isn't that strong.

ChiXJeff

[seanR]

Yea just the eight bolt on the rear crossmember. I am currently working on a gas tank skid plate and am thinking about tying it all together using the bottom of the frame rails. I has any one done this? any pics?

[Rev Den]

Yes. No pics...but, you should tie it in to the bottom of the frame rails, like a trailer hitch. The factory skid plate, trailer hitch, and most aftermarket bumpers use a reinforcement nut-strip in the frame to bolt to the bottom of the rail.

Rev

[Mike in NJ]

Let the games begin . . . . . . :woohoo:

Yank wrote:

what is adequate in the eyes of the spare tire inspector?

and SeanR wrote:

I have homemade bumpers front and rear

All you guys have to believe that there were MANY, MANY "discussions" :soapbox: amongst the BOD and some other folks regarding our safety requirements. Yes, we want this (and any NAXJA event) to be safe, but we also recognize that there are limitations over how far we can go to ensure that safety.

The list of 7 that you see are the minimum requirements that we feel can lead to a safe event, considering that none of us are professional OHSA inspectors. And no x-ray :attom: machines will be available to check welds. Even the choice of adjectives was carefully looked at.

Especially since many in this organization are very accomplished (and some not-so accomplished) self builders.

In the end, we opted for common sense. We'll use it, you guys use it too. When you look, really look (and be honest! :angel: ), at the regulation affected (i.e. tires, battery tie down, tow points, etc.) - do you think anyone might question it? How hard would they question it? What would be your response?

If you think you can pass the red-face :o test, then bring it out, OR ask here first.

In the case of any negative inspections, it will not be a single opinion that will do you in - that inspector will discuss it with the other inspectors, and then the Safety Sheriff (Nazi is such an ugly word, dontcha think?) - me :patriot: , will make the determination. And, even my decisions can be appealed to any BOD member :jester: (your elected representatives).

We think this is a good, and fair, approach.

Now, specifically to the questions a hand:

Yank, "adequate spare" means something that is round, support the weight of the vehicle, will roll, and does not have inner belts showing through the treads. It most certainly does not have to be the same size and make of the original tire it's replacing. We just have to safely retrieve your vehicle from the trail, not be able to continue on the Baja 500. We are trying to avoid the scenario of a group of Jeepers trying to drag a three-wheeled pile of steel across a few miles of desert trail, 1500 feet above the Colorado River.

SeanR, this is a bit more difficult to answer, but the consensus is that tow points (front or rear) MUST be supported directly by tieing into the unirail (with high grade brackets and hardware). Attachment points (homemade or otherwise) that mount directly to a bumper (which is NOT, in turn, tied into the unirails) are suspect.

Based on your description, we would have some concerns. Shock loads with a strap are considerable (much, much more than a flat tow) and depending 100% upon the stock bumper bolts/mounts is a risky proposition. A suggestion would be to add a bracket or strap between the underside of the rear bumper and each rear unirail (similar to many receiver hitch setups) to spread the load a bit.

Sight unseen though, it would be difficult to give you an absolute answer. We have quite a few folks in the Chicago area (not sure where you are in IL), maybe you could get some more direct opinion over what you should,or should not do, before heading out to Utah.

That's the most honest answer I can give you at this time.

(...and I see that others have jumped in while I was painstakingly putting this one together. The comments seem consistent ;) )

Hope it was clear. :dunno:

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Kejtar]

Originally posted by Mike in NJ
Yank, "adequate spare" means something that is round, support the weight of the vehicle, will roll, and does not have inner belts showing through the treads. It most certainly does not have to be the same size and make of the original tire it's replacing.

You're mentioning that it doesn't have to be the "same size" but does that mean that donuts are allowed? I personally have a same sized spare so it doesn't really affect me, but I can see a situation where retrieving a vehicle from the trail might mean giong through more of the trail thus a really odd sized tire might go very quickly...

Kejtar

[Mike in NJ]

Thirty days from today, I will be in Moab - wish I was there already . . . . :banghead:


Ketjar wrote:

. . . but does that mean that donuts are allowed?

:tears: oh well, this was going to be asked sooner or later. might as well deal with it now.

Yes, donuts will be allowed - if they are in decent shape, they meet the characteristic of allowing a vehicle to roll while being towed. Hence, the word "adequate" - there was much argument about what adjective we would use.

HOWEVER, does this mean that you will be able to continue on the trail like nothing happened? No - especially if you are running 35's :wierd:.

And, consider that you would be disrupting the ride while you are being transported/escorted to pavement, and while I'm sure that all the rest of the Jeepers will be more than supportive over your plight, I also think they will not be thrilled over messin' up their experience because you were a cheap SOB who wouldn't spring for a decent spare to go off road. I'd watch your back in the blackness between campfires at SlickRock that night. :hang:

:D

Common Sense folks. Common Sense.

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[ChiXJeff]

Originally posted by Mike in NJ
Sight unseen though, it would be difficult to give you an absolute answer. We have quite a few folks in the Chicago area (not sure where you are in IL), maybe you could get some more direct opinion over what you should,or should not do, before heading out to Utah.

Mike in NJ :patriot:

Okay....... I didn't notice that SeanR is in IL. Or that Durand is probably an hour to an hour and a half away from me.

Make all parties concerned a deal.

Sean, we've got a month before we leave. I've helped Mike with inspections before. Do you want to get together some evening and take a look over your XJ? Can't be this weekend, I'm heading for MI. For sure, you don't want to drive all the way to UT just to find out you don't meet the safety checklist.

Mike, we'll post up stuff here for discussion if there's anything questionable.

...donuts...
Me, I like Krispy Kremes...... but no donuts for me. I do not want to see a donut used on a trail. Between lack of ground clearance, skinny contact patch, and thin tread. I don't think donuts have any place four-wheeling. Other clubs have specified full size stock spares and specifically no compact spares as a minimum. Even trails that stockers can do will have problems occasionally with donuts. Wipeout Hill?

It's certainly too late to change the list now, though.

ChiXJeff

[Kejtar]

Originally posted by ChiXJeff
Me, I like Krispy Kremes......

Why oh why did you have to mention Krispy Kremes.... now I'm itching to go and get some...

Kejtar

[ChiXJeff]

Originally posted by Kejtar
Why oh why did you have to mention Krispy Kremes.... now I'm itching to go and get some...

Kejtar

:D I drive by TWO of them each way on my daily commute!

ChiXJeff

[seanR]

On the spare tire issue, I went to the bone yard last month and purchased a full size tire of'n a junked XJ. At first I just straped it down to the tie downs in back. Last week I was giving my Jeep a god cleaning inside and out, I took the donut off to clean behind it, (yes I am anal) and decided to try the new spare in that spot, I fit perfectly by moving the attachment bolt up to the next hole. So now I have a spare that is almost the same size as the other four, is in an out of the way location, looks OK, and cost me $25.00.

I will work on attatching the rear bumper more soundly when I install the rear skid. I thought a sideways 'L' shaped bracket in conjuction with the gas tank skid that 'sandwiches' the bumper brackets and the rear X-member and attaches to the bottom of the frame rail along with the skid might be a viable option.

Thanks for the help y'all.

[seanR]

A 'god' cleaning is alot like a 'good' cleaning, only you wash behind the spare tire. duh!

[ChiXJeff]

Originally posted by seanR
I will work on attatching the rear bumper more soundly when I install the rear skid. I thought a sideways 'L' shaped bracket in conjuction with the gas tank skid that 'sandwiches' the bumper brackets and the rear X-member and attaches to the bottom of the frame rail along with the skid might be a viable option.


That's also how the hitch receivers mount as well. Make it long, don't use just the first 2 bolts.

BTW, Custom 4x4's rear bumper and tire carrier combo doesn't rely on only the 8 bumper bolts. Mike sends out a set of extensions like you describe with the tire carrier to handle the extra load.

[Yank(RowlettTX)]

The reason I asked was that some clubs do require a full size spare, 33" in my case. My spare is not full size (30") but I'm sure it would let me get out of the way if needed. I myself am a "stuff the hole with as many plugs as it takes, then sew it shut" kind of guy. It only has to get you back to camp.

Thanks for clearifing this for me.

[TRNDRVR]

Originally posted by Mike in NJ
5. Adequate attachment points in the front AND rear of the vehicle. Acceptable forms of attachment points are: Tow Hooks of OEM or greater integrity, D-Rings, Shackles or Clevis.
Is the type of tow hook that slides into the receiver sufficient for a rear application?

[4ward]

That's an affirmative there TRN, as long as you put the hitch pin in to hold it :D

[TRNDRVR]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ
That's an affirmative there TRN, as long as you put the hitch pin in to hold it :D
Pin? What is this pin you talk about??? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Does it hold it in or something?

Thanks,
Dan.
(edit) PS Maybe I should have added a couple of these: :D :D

[Kejtar]

he means the pin that holds things in the receiver

[TRNDRVR]

Originally posted by Kejtar
he means the pin that holds things in the receiver
You really didn't think I ........ ah, never mind. :D

[LiquidOps]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33653&item=2429508202

to bid or not to bid???

input?

[Kejtar]

I believe you can buy one brand new for $25 from a regular shop.... I'm just trying to remember where Sequoia got his from.... I'm pretty sure he paid only $25

[LiquidOps]

k cool... if ya find that link or shop, drop it in a PM or post it here.... thanks a lot...

[Kejtar]

will do.... gimme a holler on Tuesday and I'll look it up while I'm at work (more time to bum around)

Kejtar

[LiquidOps]

DUDE!! I just realized where you live!!! Westminster??? I'm in Buena Park.... not too far :)

ok.... sorry... enough off topic stuff..... hit me up on AIM if ya got it hp70stang

[JeepXJ92]

Damn, I gotta find me some front tow hooks....

[Mike in NJ]

Okay, I'm using this little trick of getting this thread up towards the top (where we already have FIVE important announcements! :eek: ) - won't be the last time either.

Since I want to MINIMIZE any surprises come inspection time....

Three weeks from today I'm headed out :D :D :D and won't be able to answer any more complex safety questions like "Yes, you may bring a Class D extinguisher to put your mag wheel fire out, but it won't do much good if your engine goes up. That's what the B:C's are for."

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Danno]

If all you have is a "D" extinguisher you might as well pack LOTS of water (beer) and plan on "extinguishing" it yourself! :D :D

[sidriptide]

ok saftety sheriff........ i currently have a "uhaul" bought 1 1/4" reciever hitch on the rear... mounted solid with 3 bolts on each side... i dont have concerns over its strength since i hauled another XJ 250 miles on a wheel dolly with it.. up to snuff???
i also will be stealing the 2" front receiver from the trail rig for this outting.. i hate tow hooks.

[Goatman]

Originally posted by sidriptide
ok saftety sheriff........ i currently have a "uhaul" bought 1 1/4" reciever hitch on the rear... mounted solid with 3 bolts on each side... i dont have concerns over its strength since i hauled another XJ 250 miles on a wheel dolly with it.. up to snuff???
i also will be stealing the 2" front receiver from the trail rig for this outting.. i hate tow hooks.

A reciever with a shackle or hook insert is good, or just using the pin. The loop of a strap can be put into the reciever and then the pin slide through the loop, this works very well.

See you in Moab,

[Beezil]

goat, yer gonna get some confused replies I think....

I've never used that technique myself, so i don't know how well it works, but there's many on the jeep forums that say those pins can't take the abuse....

could possibly be internet myth, I dunno. If you guys use that technique out west with success, thats good enough for me.

[4ward]

I've used the hitch pin many, many times. Problem is his hitch isn't big enough to get most straps inside the reciever. Go buy a hunk of solid stell that fits in there and drill a hole for the hitch pin, then drill 2 holes for a hook that you can find at any parts store, or use a d-ring that you can find at any tractor supply.

[Mike in NJ]

Sidriptide wrote:

bought 1 1/4" reciever hitch

Mike:

That hitch and mounting method is OK as an anchor point, but like the guys said, the devil's gonna be in HOW to attach a strap to that sized receiver.

Personally, I have never seen an insert (similar to the ones for 2" receivers) for a 1.25", but I would guess somebody makes one (or fab something up yourself like Sean suggested). That way you can easily mount a shackle.

Regardless, you have a few weeks to figure it out (plenty of time! :) )

And Beez, regarding the "pinned strap" method of retrieval . . . while I personally prefer a D-shackle on an insert for my rear receiver, I have seen that other way work fine many times (and have used it myself on occasion). The pin showed no deflection.

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[sidriptide]

i have a D-ring and a hook for the 2" ... u-haul has an adapter for 1.25 to 2".. sticks out a bit but i wouldnt wheel with it mounted anyways... and i have a skid for the front.. as far as the "pin" method.. i've seen it, and done it.. don't see why it would fail , but its a reason to buy a RESSE pin rather than the cheap walmart pin...
mike

[Kejtar]

what is the 1 1/4" receiver (or actually the hitch) rated as??? how does it connect to the frame???

For our needs it needs to be rated way over the vehicle weight due to yanks and pulls and so on... Since you're buying one, why didn't you buy a 2" one??

Kejtar

[sidriptide]

i already have the1.25 installed... i only haul an 8' yard trailer... and u-haul didint carry a 2" for the XJ.... rated at 200# tongue and 3500# IIRC... if it wont cut it i will pirate the 2" off the trail rig...
i'd like mark to make a call on this since he's got the final word..
mike

[Jump This]

You all are depressing me......I will never be able to travel much during Sept. or Oct. (I coach high school volleyball)
But I find myself uncontrolably going over your check lists and double checking my XJ just to make sure it would pass inspection!!:D I recently tore off my front bumper when I was towing my XJ (always remember that you can not remove the key from the igniton after you hook it up to the tow bar) Since I was in a hurry to repair it I built new brackets out of 3/16" flat and ran a support from from each bracket on the back of the stock bumper. To these I remounted my Reese tow bar brackets. Very strong but missleading in apperance....looks like I just mounted my tow mounts to the stock sheet metal of the bumper.
I don't know why I even mention this...probably just assuring myself that if I found a way to go my rig would at least pass inspection (have new full size spare even!)
Just ignore me..
Maybe I should order a t-shirt....:banghead:

[Kejtar]

Originally posted by sidriptide
rated at 200# tongue and 3500# IIRC...
You're right it's Mike's call.... but even if he lets it pass, if I was you I'd look into changing it out as the XJ is 3,355lb curb weight and if it's stuck, the drag and so on will make it heavier (plus I would guess you'd have it all loaded up) so at a hard pull or a yank, something might let loose and metal might fly thus making it dangerous..... this is also a reason that they don't make the receptacle D rigns or towhooks for the 1.25"

Kejtar

[Mike in NJ]

Okay, I guess some more opinion is required here.

About the 1.25" hitch: I'm not personally familiar with the U-Haul version. If it is mounted with a cross brace structure that is bolted onto the "frame" rail on either side, regardless of the Class rating weight, that would seem to be an acceptable anchor point. Simply bolted to the bumper itself, or the vertical face of the XJ's rear cross member would be suspect.

About the front bumper mount: any tow hook that is NOT supported by a brace which is, in turn, bolted onto the "frame" rail would also be suspect. Jump, I can't tell from your description how your fabbed brackets are tied into the system. What we are trying to avoid are tow hooks that are simply bolted onto bumpers that are attached to the truck by the OEM bolt holes in the vertical surface of the front cross member. Those are the kind which can simply rip out of the bumper (or the bumper off of the truck), under load. I know this may not answer your question, but it's the best I can do from 3000 miles away. Maybe you could get another local opinion if you still don't feel comfortable (MJR appears to be only an hour or so away. I'd tell you to buy a T-shirt and visit Goat, but Bakersfield looks to be a bit further drive! :D )

For both front and back tow points, OEM or homebuilt, we will be looking for strength that is tied directly onto the unirails - either by individual support brackets or onto honkin' beefy bumpers that are, in turn, have a strap or bracket which extends and bolts alongside the unirail.

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Beezil]

one word on hitches....

these rating are for towing things on the open road....

like anything, there is a safty factor....

take a hoist ring rated for 5,000 lbs....

I have a pair that have a safety factor of 6.

that doesn't mean it'll break if you strap on a 6,000 load.

the rings are made to specs that have the ability to lift 30,000 pounds, but are "certified" or "rated" to lift 1/6th of their designed capacity.

I don't know what the safty factor is on class II or III hitches, but suffice it to say, the little one is capable of a lot more than 3500lbs....

Hey safety persons!!!!

lotsa question being asked on this thread........

how are you guys gonna call it? (edit) damn, mike! slid your responce in as I was typing! these safety people are quick!

[4ward]

I had one of those little hitches on my first XJ. It served as a tow point many more times than I'll ever admit to.

[Mike in NJ]

Well of course, you know that anyone in this neck of the woods has to be Quick or Dead! (tough traffic around here :D )

And, last time I checked, I was still breathing.

Thanks for the elaboration on the strength ratings, I also think a Class II receiver is fine, AS LONG AS it's mounted firmly.

(wanna be a guest inspector, Beez? You can do the weld certifications, especially on One Ton's)

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Danno]

let's get Beezil's mother to do it. She is a fine welder...when she remembers!:D

[Beezil]

I thought welds weren't going to be inspected this year?


dammit!

[Kejtar]

Beezil, I think in your case there will be an exception made :)

[Jump This]

Okay..I am going to be a pain here.....
How many bumpers are bolted onto anything OTHER than the vertical sides of the frame rails?
I know that most of them exstend farther (or is that further?) back and add a single additional bolt...
Do any others have additional mounts under the frame rails?
I have seen where someone has encased the rail with 2X6 and bolted right thru it and welded the bumper to that (no question the strongest approach!)
It sounds as though you are asking for more than the factory three bolt set-up...regardless of the material the bumper itself is made of.....
Am I missing something here? :D
Okay..so I don't realy mean to be a pain...I was just wondering...

[Mike in NJ]

No, you're not being a pain - I answered you too quick, :( and got muddled between front and rear set-ups. (Hey, what do you expect, I'm old! ;) )

Yes, a stock front bumper bracket attaches to the sides of the unirail by three bolts - adequate to hold the bumper on, and not a lot of margin for anything else.

BUT, even the OEM tow hooks add some more bracketry (is that a word?) and a strap extends further back along the outside of the rail which is bolted again. Any aftermarket (or home built) bumper which is expected to support tow points (e.g. receiver, hooks, D-shackles, etc.) and is worth its salt also include a fitting which extends further back along the rail with additional bolts.

So yes, we are expecting better than the stock OEM 3 bolt per side setup -which is for a bumper that is not intended to be pulled forward.

We're just trying to avoid scenarios in which someone has just drilled a few holes and attached a tow hook to the bottom of the stock bumper, or mounted an armor plated, monster pushbar w/D-shackles still only being supported by the six little OEM bolts through the side of the very end of the unirails. All of those quick fixes are just missiles waiting to be launched.

A long, long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away) I mentioned something in this thread about Common sense. That advice still holds - if anybody is expecting to be yanked off the side of CliffHanger 800 feet above the Colorado, do you want your life hanging in the balance of six little bolts in sheet metal retainers either on your rig, or the guy that's pulling you out?

Anyway Jump, thanks for keeping this subject honest, I appreciate the chance to explain further for the lurkers out there!

19 days before I head West . . . . :D

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Jump This]

Nuff' said! (But it has always amazed me how 'uncommon' common sense is!) :D

[Goatman]

Like Mike has said, commom sense has to rule here, with adequate safety being the issue. Some very well built aftermarket bumpers only use the six stock bumper bolts for mounts. While this looks to me like a questionable practice, and is not ideal, a good strong bumper would have to rip all three bolts off of one side at the same time to fail, which isn't likely if the bumper itself it very stout. This wouldn't apply to the stock bumper, which would deform itself and stress the bolts differently, with the bumper itself possibly failing. A tow hook bolted through the thin steel of the stock bumper could just pull through or deform the bumper.

The factory tow hook brackets are a very good model to work from when designing a strong bumper mount. Besides the piece that runs down the frame and is bolted through it, there is also an angled brace that goes inside of the two front stock bolt holes and is bolted to the front crossmember, adding a good amount of strength to the stock mounting position. These two L brackets alone would make any bumper attached to the stock mounts much stronger.

[Mike in NJ]

btt

(is this the cool, hip Internetgeekspeak way to do this?) :wierd:

MG

[Kejtar]

nah, the cool way is to find something to say that fits in that brings it back to top.... the btt is for those who can't get any reactions out of anyone.... and they can't htink of a better way to do it :)