Noobs, Beggingers, IMPORTANT

Noobs, Beggingers, TROUBLESHOOT

Many times people post on here about all the things they have replaced for no starts conditions or performance problems. Some throw tons of money at things by replacing parts. Sometimes you will hit on it sometimes you wont. The proper way to approach a repair job is from a TROUBLE SHOOTING stand point. This means a orderly, methodical approach. Say a light wont work, sure the normal thing is to just replace the bulb. I agree you wouldn't go start doing tons of stuff with prints and everything. But lets say its a $8.00 bulb and you don't want to waste $8.00 You would verify things. First you could check for a good circuit and current flow by using a test light in the bulb socket. Then you could use a battery to power up the bulb. Say the bulb is good. So you actually found that the circuit is good and the bulb is good .......what the heck? In this case the contacts are probably not tight or clean. Its just an example of the approach you need to take. You would have went to the store, burned gas, wasted time and bought a bulb you don't need. I have had idiots tell me, Well if you know so much .........whats wrong with my this or that. DUUUUUUUHHHHHH, I'm not a god or have xray power, I actually don't even try to remember every problem I run across and what the answer was to that problem. IT CANT BE DONE. You can only remember so much. I keep notes and that can help in profiling problems but the main approach is to APPLY TROUBLE SHOOTING CONCEPTS. Sure the guy that only works on one product can get real good at remembering what goes wrong but if his method is only memory then someone is paying for all his "part replacing lessons" until he is up to speed and he cant easily go to another product because he only remembers the one he is on. If you develop a trouble shooting approach you can work on anything. There are times when part substitution is used but its not the primary approach. I get a wiring schematic or diagram for any vehicle I plan on driving for a long time. If you get prints for your ride sit and look at them when its not CRISES time. Concentrate on a circuit and follow it over and over to get the hang of it. Vehicles and powered equipment get more complex all the time. Develop these skills and it will pay off for the rest of your life. FAQ section, no start post. Its an excellent post. Go to it. Copy it. Learn it. http://www.naxja.org/forum/showpost.php?p=958667&postcount=1

Re: Noobs, Beginners, IMPORTANT

needsrepair said:

Many times people post on here about all the things they have replaced for no starts conditions or performance problems. Some throw tons of money at things by replacing parts. Sometimes you will hit on it sometimes you wont. The proper way to approach a repair job is from a TROUBLE SHOOTING stand point. This means a orderly, methodical approach. Say a light wont work, sure the normal thing is to just replace the bulb. I agree you wouldn't go start doing tons of stuff with prints and everything. But lets say its a $8.00 bulb and you don't want to waste $8.00 You would verify things. First you could check for a good circuit and current flow by using a test light in the bulb socket. Then you could use a battery to power up the bulb. Say the bulb is good. So you actually found that the circuit is good and the bulb is good .......what the heck? In this case the contacts are probably not tight or clean. Its just an example of the approach you need to take. You would have went to the store, burned gas, wasted time and bought a bulb you don't need. I have had idiots tell me, Well if you know so much .........whats wrong with my this or that. DUUUUUUUHHHHHH, I'm not a god or have xray power, I actually don't even try to remember every problem I run across and what the answer was to that problem. IT CANT BE DONE. You can only remember so much. I keep notes and that can help in profiling problems but the main approach is to APPLY TROUBLE SHOOTING CONCEPTS. Sure the guy that only works on one product can get real good at remembering what goes wrong but if his method is only memory then someone is paying for all his "part replacing lessons" until he is up to speed and he cant easily go to another product because he only remembers the one he is on. If you develop a trouble shooting approach you can work on anything. There are times when part substitution is used but its not the primary approach. I get a wiring schematic or diagram for any vehicle I plan on driving for a long time. If you get prints for your ride sit and look at them when its not CRISES time. Concentrate on a circuit and follow it over and over to get the hang of it. Vehicles and powered equipment get more complex all the time. Develop these skills and it will pay off for the rest of your life.

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YES YES YES! Y'ask me, that was worth repeating - so I quoted it over again. FNKs, I hope you read it both times (if you didn't, I highly suggest you do...)

I've been working on vehicles, equipment, and electronics for the better part of 30 years now. The more complex the device, the more notes I take.

I currently have six vehicles (five of them are XJ's, one destined for parts) and I've got notebooks on four of the XJs and I've started one on the recent acquisition (2005 Suzuki Verona for my wife.) I've also got FSMs ranging from 1962 to 2001 for Jeep vehicles, and I'm working on filling in the holes.

As far as troubleshooting your XJ goes, this is a great resource! Before you buy a single damn part, search here. If you don't turn anything up in an hour (and I defy you to tell me you didn't learn anything...) then ask! Chances are, someone has had the same problem before, and it just hasn't been covered online yet. If not, chances are you'll get help - free help! - and you've saved fuel and parts money because you didn't drive back and forth to take a "shotgun" approach to the problem (or used the "spaghetti method" - throw it all at the wall and see what sticks.)

Chances are, you'll get access to any year of FSM for the XJ (in production from 1984 to 2001,) and there have got to be about 500 man-years of high-level mechanical technical experience here. I'm not talking just about the "new techs" that came up on OBD-I and OBD-II; I'm talking about old guys (like me, for instance...) who came up with points and condensers, progressed into early Delco control electronics, waded through Ford's "brilliant" DuraSpark system, and went into TFI-IV, Delco DIS/Waste Spark, and goodies like that. I remember the early Delco HEI, circa 1974. I remember the troubleshooting problems with Ford DuraSpark.

The average "new tech" relies entirely too much on the OBD scan tools. While that's all well and good, chances are they never really learned how to think about a problem. There are those of us who are used to doing their own troubleshooting, and many of us are here.

And, most of us learned from "old-line" mechanics ourselves - guys who'd never even dealt with electronic controls, or the very early versions. Guys who had to think to solve a problem. And, mostly, guys who couldn't afford to throw money and parts at a problem to make it go away. Can you? Somehow, I really don't think so...

Start a notebook for your rig. Put the VIN on the cover. Inside the front cover, put all your tune-up part numbers and specs (filter numbers, plug numbers, gap, firing order, and even a little thumbnail sketch of the dizzy and block to sort out the wiring.)

Log your tuneups. Note the mileage and the date - both are important.

Note major repairs - saves you wondering when we ask you if something has ever had a seeing-to.

Note modifications - include drawings and schematics, if you need to. You don't need to be an EET to draw automotive schematics - most of the symbols are simple. A Chilton's manual should explain them; if you don't have access to one, a major public library probably has either Mitchell or Motor manuals - and probably one that applies to you! Failing that, Google is your friend... "Learn the Way of Google, Grasshopper..."

You have only finite room in your hat, no matter what you think. Supplement that space - that's why mankind invented writing. I keep far more detailed information on one shelf than I do between my ears - what I keep in my hat is where to find the detailed answer. Saves memory space...

There are some parts that are cheap enough to replace readily - light bulbs, fuses, relays all come to mind. You should keep spares on hand. However, I'm not usually willing to test a critical sensor by substitution - either it's expensive ($50 and up,) it's a pain to replace, or both. If you don't know how to test a sensor, search here. If it's not covered here (we've got a number of projects in progress, please be patient...) then ask and someone who's done it will probably tell you.

Should you need to ask, there are a couple of things to bear in mind:

1) DO NOT TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS! Not only is it the equivalent of shouting, but it's irritating to read. I only did it here as an example...

2) Keep it easy on the language. We can tell you're frustrated - but no need to get nasty about it. We try to keep this a "PG-rated" community. If you find yourself swearing, don't hit the commit button right away! Save the mods the work - go have a cold drink or a sandwich, then come back and review it five minutes later. You'll find the swearing superfluous (it is, and doesn't add anything to the message) and you'll be able to edit it out before you post, saving the mods the trouble.

3) If you're in a hurry for the answer, please don't bump your own post! We have people ranging from Indonesia to the UAE popping around at all hours here - the guy who knows the answer to your question may not have come online yet. See that little "New Posts" link at the upper centre of the screen? That's relative for everyone that clicks it - if you haven't read a post yet, it will come up as a "New Post" for you. Bumping your own post to the top of the pile not only wastes bandwidth and server space, but it's just plain rude and will probably result in you not getting a useful answer. You Have Been Warned...

4) Punctuation and some modicum of grammar are also your friends. If you type like you're in the fourth grade, please PLEASE please go work on it! Use punctuation. Avoid run-on sentences. If I find myself having to take a breath in the middle of your sentence, I probably won't finish reading it. Spelling is helpful, but the mind can adapt to all but truly atrocious spelling - although proper spelling helps the search engine find your answer when someone else needs it. Keep a dictionary handy, if you need one.

Solving problems doesn't need to be like finding "hay in a needle stack" - use the brains God gave you, and you'll come out ahead.

On that note, I'm going to bed. I've got to do a batch of ergonomic appraisals to-morrow (Oh, damn. To-day!) I've already gone on longer than I'd planned to, but this was something that deserved amplification, and I'd just like to thank needsrepair for bringing it up this time... This is something that needs to be addressed periodically, I think...

Great to hear from you 5-90. I will watch for more of your posts. Surprising how much "old farts" know:cheers:

Both contain excellent information and appreciate y'all taking the time and effort to post up. Now, if everyone will read and heed, the world will be a better place!! atriot:

Good advice and good motivation to be patient and troubleshoot more. Thank you for the encouragement. Rick

needsrepair said:

Surprising how much "old farts" know:cheers:

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I resemble that remark! :laugh:

needsrepair said:

Great to hear from you 5-90. I will watch for more of your posts. Surprising how much "old farts" know:cheers:

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"Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." By that definition, I've got a lot of experience!

"Olde Phart" is relative - depends on how much you've crammed into your years, not how many years you've got...

Great comments. Even as a relative noobe to Jeeps and the forums, I have had many of the same thoughts. Having had 35+ years of electrical, electronic, and software experience, I can definitely concur that methodical troubleshooting is critical to timely and economical problem solving.

This thread should definitely be a sticky.

FIRTFT

Fix It Right The First Time :eeks1:

One other thing I would add is that you try to be very specific with terms. If you aren't sure of the proper terms, add some description. People will be much less annoyed with you for using odd words that communicate the meaning than for omitting vital information or using a few common words wrong.

Matthew Currie said:

One other thing I would add is that you try to be very specific with terms. If you aren't sure of the proper terms, add some description. People will be much less annoyed with you for using odd words that communicate the meaning than for omitting vital information or using a few common words wrong.

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One other thing I'll add to this: use of proper terminology.

The author may know what they mean by referring to a 'dizzy' (distributor), for example, but other people reading may not. It also makes searching semi-useless, since anyone searching for distributor-related information is pretty unlikely to think of 'dizzy' as a search term.

I hope you guys don't mind the hi-jack but my one tire seems to be a little low. Trying to figure out if it's the little thingymadoohicklejobber that's outta whack? I started off by looking in the glovebox but it's still givin' me fits. You all really seem to know your stuff. Any tips?

riverfever said:

I hope you guys don't mind the hi-jack but my one tire seems to be a little low. Trying to figure out if it's the little thingymadoohicklejobber that's outta whack? I started off by looking in the glovebox but it's still givin' me fits. You all really seem to know your stuff. Any tips?

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Check your whosits first. It's pretty rare that a thingymadoohicklejobber would go out without whosit failure. You may also want to scope out the gubbins and other stuff while you're in there.

casm said:

Check your whosits first. It's pretty rare that a thingymadoohicklejobber would go out without whosit failure. You may also want to scope out the gubbins and other stuff while you're in there.

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Oh crap...I'm gonna have to get a FSM.

FSM?

It's an all-right magazine, but I like Maxim better.

"Dizzy"....did somone call me.

Once the job has begun,
do not leave it 'til it's done.

Be the labor big or small,
do it right or not at all.

Zero Defects....do it right the first time.

someone mentioned a FSM.

i use the haynes to level the kitchen table and the chiltons is a pretty good at absorbing spilt beer, do everyone on and yourself a giant favor; invest in a Factory Service Manual!!! its going to save you much grief and confusion.

Good post and a lot of pent up bitching. Good times.

James

rag said:

someone mentioned a FSM.

i use the haynes to level the kitchen table and the chiltons is a pretty good at absorbing spilt beer, do everyone on and yourself a giant favor; invest in a Factory Service Manual!!! its going to save you much grief and confusion.

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HOW DARE YOU SIR!!! :nono: I use a shop rag so I can ring it out in my mouth.