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building for dunes, is this overkill or just right?

HandBuiltXJ

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Oceanside, CA
My platform is a 93 xj body with cocktail 4.63 liter stroker.

I am going to be running 31x10.5 cooper stt's on stock steel rims.

I am looking at the RE 3.5 superflex kit and king shocks all around with 10" travel remote reservoir 2.5's in the front and 12" travel piggyback 2.5 in the rear.

the truck will be used as a chase vehicle in the desert loaded down with tools for our race team running from checkpoint, to checkpoint, fast as i can.

So will those 2.5 shocks be overkill for the re 3.5 superflex kit?
Or do i need to look at doing a different set up for running fast through the dunes.

I want to stay with the 31's, since i allready have em and they shouldn't put too much strain on my axles.

thank you in advance for your inputs.

john
 
If there is one thing you can never spend too much on, it is shocks.

You may need a slightly heavier spring rate for running really fast, especially if you are going to be loaded down.

What is your front spring rate? How many leaves in your rear pack? How much cargo are you going to be carrying?
 
I would recommend a heavier than normal spring rate if you are going to be running it hard. I race a Jeepspeed and we started with a fairly standard spring rate in the front but it seemed like the harder we wanted to run it, the stiffer the front springs need to be.

And run a 14" travel shock in the rear if you can fit it.

Chris
 
diddo on the air bump stops and I may contact Deaver or a company like that and get some custom leaves made to handle the high speeds and weight from tools and part.
 
90xj4x4 said:
I would also look into some Air-Bump bump stops...I think King makes some??
king, fox, bilstein all make hydraulic bumps, getting two sets myself but havn't decided on the manufacturer yet, they are all comparable in price, $225-300+ a set.
 
Skullvarian said:
king, fox, bilstein all make hydraulic bumps, getting two sets myself but havn't decided on the manufacturer yet, they are all comparable in price, $225-300+ a set.

Where have you found them for $225-300 a set? I can't seem to find them anywhere for less than $175-230 each!
 
frogmanjohn said:
My platform is a 93 xj body with cocktail 4.63 liter stroker.

I am going to be running 31x10.5 cooper stt's on stock steel rims.

I am looking at the RE 3.5 superflex kit and king shocks all around with 10" travel remote reservoir 2.5's in the front and 12" travel piggyback 2.5 in the rear.

the truck will be used as a chase vehicle in the desert loaded down with tools for our race team running from checkpoint, to checkpoint, fast as i can.

So will those 2.5 shocks be overkill for the re 3.5 superflex kit?
Or do i need to look at doing a different set up for running fast through the dunes.

I want to stay with the 31's, since i allready have em and they shouldn't put too much strain on my axles.

thank you in advance for your inputs.

john

You shouldn't need gears with 31's and the stroker, it has plenty of power to pull 31's with stock gears........but lower gears are nice.

I don't think 2.5" shocks are overkill. If you're working on a race team you likely already know this, but the larger diameter shock doesn't effect the valving, it mostly means you have more fluid volume and can run faster longer before the shocks overheat. I wish shock companies had a more universal way of rating shock valving so it could be easier to compare from one brand to another. I've run 2.25" SAW's with custom valving, and now run Bilstein 7100's in front and 5150's in the rear. The fronts are 275/78 and the rears are 255/70, and I think the valving is pretty darn close. I'd prefer slightly more compression valving in the rear but I like the rebound valving. For just desert running I'd get slightly more compression valving for the front also, but for a combination of trail running and fast stuff it's pretty good.

If you're getting the RE 3.5 kit, ask about opting out for the stiffer 4.5 ZJ coil, which I think is also the 5.5 XJ coil. If that gives you too much lift, cut a little off the coil to get the lift amount you want, which will also slightly increase the spring rate. You'll want a stiffer front spring rate for what you want to do. I run more lift than you do, and have a winch in front, and I run the Skyjacker 8" coil with one full coil cut off. From what we've seen the SJ coil is the stiffest production coil out there, and it's even stiffer with one coil removed, and I think it's close to perfect for trail running and desert running. If I just ran desert I'd want it even stiffer.

The RE rear springs are pretty good from what I hear, but make sure you get a new leaf pack, not just an add-a-leaf. Getting the bump stops adjusted properly will make a big difference in how it handles the dunes and the fast desert stuff. I've tried all kinds of front bumpstops and what I just put in are by far the best. They are coil inserts, and I got them from Baja Concepts. They are pretty soft, mine compress a little more than 3", and they work very well. The stock rubber rear bumpstops aren't bad if they are adjusted right.

Be sure you're 12" shocks in the rear don't bottom out. I'd get the lift installed to the height you want, then flex it out good and lift the back to cycle the suspension, and measure to see about the right shock length. Rear shock length is critical if you want full travel without bottoming the shock, and won't go through the floor with the upper mount. You may need to shop around a little for a shock that's the perfect length, rather than just live with one company's length of shock. A number of us are using the Bilstein 7100's because they come in a short body version, which gives you a 12" travel shock in a 10" shock length. Something to check out.

I also have a 4.6 stroker and love the fast stuff. Getting some good trussing on your axles is important. I run a D60 in the rear which I haven't had any trouble with, but I run a D44 in the front that I've broken 3 times.......twice cracked the housing and once broke off an inner C.......two times from jumping and once from hitting a rock. The D44 is now heavily strussed. What class is your team running in?

Have fun,
 
Goatman said:
You shouldn't need gears with 31's and the stroker, it has plenty of power to pull 31's with stock gears........but lower gears are nice.

Hey bud, thank you for the long extensive write up. I am going to reread thi a few times to make sure i absorb it all.

The kit i got does come with rear leaves so thats good.

on increasing the spring rate in the front, should i maybe cut a coil off and use the 2" poly spacer to increase spring rate?

on the rear shocks, i plan on custom mounting the rear ones, maybe even massaging the rear floor to make room.

This jeep will also be used for mild trail running and a little rockcrawling too.

Is the chrysler 8.25 a strong rear end?

john
 
First, read this thread:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25592&highlight=pre-runner

Also, just because your "kit" comes with rear leaves doesn't mean they will be the right spring rate for your application. If I were in your shoes, and I was serious about this project, I would load my Jeep with all the intended race support gear, and then drive it to a scale for a front and rear weight measurement. I would then take the rear weight, subtract the axle and wheel weight to come up with a sprung weight, and call Deaver Spring or National spring to build you a leaf pack for YOUR weight and intended suspension height.

For the front, I would duplicate the above, but you will likely not have to get a set of coils custom wound (though this is a nice option). You could due some very easy spring rate calcs on readily available aftermarket springs and pick one that suits your ride height and handling desires. In your case, I'm betting that will be around 200-210 pounds per inch, if you don't have a winch. That will give you adequate compression control, and still provide a relatively soft ride. This is quite a bit stiffer than most aftermarket springs, so I would likely start with a tall, soft spring, and cut coils (using the formula below) until the rate was right, adjusting ride height with spacers, etc.


Coil spring rate calculator: http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25592&highlight=pre-runner

About the 8.25. It will likely be up to the power input and tire size needs, but I would never run in the desert without a serious truss to keep the housing straight. Same goes for the front.

The old axiom comes to mind as I thik of developing a rig for the desert. "Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?"

CRASH

P.S. Not to be disrespectful, but I'm kind of surprised at the level of questions here. Aren't you on a race car crew? I would hope that someone on the race team has an understanding of spring rate and shock valving????
 
CRASH said:
First, read this thread:

P.S. Not to be disrespectful, but I'm kind of surprised at the level of questions here. Aren't you on a race car crew? I would hope that someone on the race team has an understanding of spring rate and shock valving????

no worries man, my buddies that i am running chase for are a part of giant motorsports, and as far as when it comes to valving selections versus weight, they will be off great help. But Giant Motorsports races only rangers and a few f150's, so when it comes to cherokee questions, i go to the experts since most of there solutions for my probs involves a torch and some guesswork.

I keep trying to post on the jeep speed forum, but no matter how many times i register and log in, it still won't let me post.

I have seen there 9" race rears completely trussed and bent, hopefully i won't be going quite that fast to bend a completely trussed axle.

On the lift subject, i just picked it up yesterday so i am kinda going to be stuck with it, i looked at deaver and they wanted 600 for a set of rear leafs, considering i got my whole lift for $700 the RE 3.5" superflex with rear springpacks, and my lady is a little upset at total lift costs, i am going to have to make it all work, maybe a helper spring on the rear for when i am loaded at the race and remove it when i am trail riding.

john
 
Hey John,
I hung out with some of the giant crew at JV, bessamer mine road, nice guys and they sure have a lot of fun out there! I was chase car for a couple of the JS 1700, and more recently the class 3 guys, lots of fun. The Nevada 1000 last year was definitely a long chase with only one other vehicle in our crew. Back then I was running the RE 3.5" kit and it worked out great, I had 3 spare 33"s in the back, food/clothes/beverages and two 12 gallon dump cans on a rear hitch mounted rack along with a couple jacks, gear oil/lubes/tools etc. My xj was bottoming out pretty good, riding them bumpstops! Should have our race rig ready in the next few months(hopefully), let me know if you ever want to team up out in the desert, glad to help out in our downtime, if your chasing for rangers etc. then the JS/class 3 rigs will usually come through the pits after them, I have nothing to do but listen in on the CB and jot down times other JS/class 3 rigs come through until my rig is race ready. See you in the Dez.
Chris
 
Skullvarian said:
Hey John,
I hung out with some of the giant crew at JV, bessamer mine road, nice guys and they sure have a lot of fun out there! I was chase car for a couple of the JS 1700, and more recently the class 3 guys, lots of fun. The Nevada 1000 last year was definitely a long chase with only one other vehicle in our crew. Back then I was running the RE 3.5" kit and it worked out great, I had 3 spare 33"s in the back, food/clothes/beverages and two 12 gallon dump cans on a rear hitch mounted rack along with a couple jacks, gear oil/lubes/tools etc. My xj was bottoming out pretty good, riding them bumpstops! Should have our race rig ready in the next few months(hopefully), let me know if you ever want to team up out in the desert, glad to help out in our downtime, if your chasing for rangers etc. then the JS/class 3 rigs will usually come through the pits after them, I have nothing to do but listen in on the CB and jot down times other JS/class 3 rigs come through until my rig is race ready. See you in the Dez.
Chris

Dude, it is awesome that you were in the same exact boat that i am in. What could you have done in the rear to keep from riding the bump stops back there? would helper springs have kept you up off of em in the back? Were you bottoming out in the front too alot?

john
 
You might want to try and sell the RE leafs and call Alcan. Have the weight of your cargo handy. He built my packs for me. I specified 400lbs of cargo and 6" of lift. They are sweet springs and not out ragously expensive. Some say I over rated my cargo but I have 7 almost 8 year old twonn boys the spend a lot of time in the back seat. Check it out they are very suportive of our club too. My custom rears were $400.00 and they have a military wrap to them. Good Luck and keep us posted of any carnage. :explosion
 
frogmanjohn said:
Dude, it is awesome that you were in the same exact boat that i am in. What could you have done in the rear to keep from riding the bump stops back there? would helper springs have kept you up off of em in the back? Were you bottoming out in the front too alot?

john
Helper springs may have helped but I wanted the rear to be much softer than the front to keep the ass end from jumping around too much, just make sure to tune both front and rears, cycle them real good and make sure you don't have any interferences, the front was not bottoming out nearly as bad. A bit of advice, try to stiffen the unibody/suspension mounts as much as possible, I cracked my windshield and there are numerous gaps in the body panels along the fenderwells from the unibody flex, it was fixable but if it got any worse it may not have been!
 
Hey John,

My advice would be to run the RE 3.5 kit just the way you have it. Upgrade later as you need. You will be out on the trail sooner and you will keep your lady happy.

By the way, I've also had the same problem with the Jeepspeed site login.

Chris
 
You should get a boomerang shackle and cut and re-mount the forward leaf spring hanger up a couple inches, get longer custom leafs and you wont have to worry about the back bouncing around as much with a well built and longer leaf packs.
 
Well my 3.5 re6030 lift is installed, still working on getting all the proper shocks on, king 2.5's aren't cheap. Between that lift and my new 31 stt's verses the old 29" bfg AT 235/75/15's that were on there, i am now 6-6.5" taller. Had to fab up a quick t-case drop kit to get rid of the bind issue. I do have to say that i love this lift, and so far, my shocks are the only limmiting factor on flex. I unfortunately has gotten a bad addiction now of driving on abandoned cars, my wife call the pictures that we take of it "Driving on cars with boys". I guess there was a movie with a similar title. Hopefully i will have my shocks mounted up before the june 10th night race out at Superstition. Thank you all again for all your input, i am still rereading that post on shock rates.

john
 
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