Let's talk about fuel delivery and what not

[4ward]

Alright folks, I'm building my own fuel cell and have some questions.

1- I won't be running an internal fuel pump, so what fuel pressure/ flow am I going to need to look for in a aftermarket pump?

2- Why is the canister there? I'm not an engine person, never have been. I can fix them if it's something external, but I've never really gotten into the mechanics of how this system and that system works. Can I get rid of this thing? I don't need to worry about emissions crap.

I had another question, but can't think of it. This'll get the ball rolling though.

Sean

[RCP Phx]

First off you cant build a fuel cell.You can build the "can" that one goes in!

[Kaczman]

I just moved the stock pump to the outside of the cell--seems to work fine. I believe a F-150 frame mounted pump will work as well (ES2000?) The canister is for the tank vent. You can run the cell vent to it or ditch it if you aren't worried about keeping it emission legal.
-Jon

[THE_OWL]

Fuel Pressure wont be an issue. Thats what your fuel pressure regulator does. As soon as you system reaches the right pressure, the rest is sent back down the return. flow will depend on any mods.
Fuel pumps mounted outside of the tank have about half the life of in-tank. Fuel is cool, and when you prime your pump each time you start it, your pump will have to run dry until fuel reaches it. Like a Motor with no oil (think pre-oiler).
I just did a fuel lpump upgrade about a year ago, and the Hot rod shop guy told me he has great luck with the holley stuff, if its mounted in tank, outside, they dont last for more than a year.

[xjjunkie]

the stock pump is 45 gph @ 90/110 psi, there are many pumps out there to meet your needs. i sell one made by hypertech. it has 3/8 in/out, 12-volt, $128.50

scot

[RNMedic]

I would keep the in tank for for durability and just have access to the top of the cell to allow easy changes, then possibly use the stock XJ one. Reliable!!!

[Jump This]

90 to 110psi fuel pressure??? Wow....didn't think they ran nearly that high.... I have always used Holley or Redline pumps when running exsternal systems. Keep them close to your can and under or at least low compared to your fuel cell.

[4ward]

I won't be putting the pump in the tank, that's why I'm asking about external aftermarket pumps. Reliability isn't an issue on a vehicle that gets driven 10 times a year.

As I understand it, I can have a fuel line outlet, a return line outlet, rollover valve / vent outlet, and fuel fill. I'm thinking I could plumb the return line into the same line as the rollover and eliminate on outlet.

The reason to keep the pump low is to keep it from having to dry prime I'd assume.

[Kaczman]

Actually, the pump should be below the the tank due to the fact the pumps are better at pushing fuel than pulling suction. Mine sat for months with no fuel in the tank, but the line still had fuel from the cell to the pump...priming shouldn't be a concern.

I'd keep the return and vent lines seperate. The return flows a fair amount of fuel, and I would worry about gasoline being pushed through the vent. Also, be sure to install a roll over valve on the vent line.


As far as reliability is concerned, many of the Jeepspeed racers run the stock Bosch pump outside of their cells without problems. I doubt I'll use as much fuel in an entire season as they do in one race. I do carry a spare pump just in case....
-Jon

[THE_OWL]

I think Stock 4.0l engines require 45psi
My LT1 runs around 40psi, and my Big Custom Fuel Injected Chevy in the Jeep runs at a whopping 42. The pressure listed by Manufacturers doesnt matter. If you motor is gonna be modified with head/cam/stroke, then get an adj FPR
Priming will be an issue. OneTonXJ , you dont seem like the kinda builder who would say: "Reliability isn't an issue" :D
would you say that about an axle? :D

[ChEwBaCcA]

I think what OneSpun was trying to say is it doesnt have to have a long life span........ If they last one year outside the tank on a hot rod that gets 5K miles a year on it, it will last him 20 years since its only being driven 10X a year, started once, twice, three times that day X 10 days a year , follow? ..... makes sense to me

Chewy

[THE_OWL]

you could say the same thing about a radiator, when it fails, your getting towed.
follow?

[XJEEPER04]

If he is only running the jeep 10x a year then the will most likely never have to replace his external. hell if he is set on running a external then let him...at least you can say i told you so if it does break (if)

[Bender]

For some reason I seem to recall someone posting the part number on POR about a month ago for a VW external fuel pump with just about the exact specs of the XJ pump.

Something like a max pressure of 90 psi and a flow rate of 45-50 gph??

FLXNXJ Wrote

"Well I changed my mind Whille the E2000 pump works, It doesnt pump as much as a stock XJ pump, I used a pump out of an late model VW beetle.
Jeep 92 XJ pump G.P.M. 45 psi. Max shut off 90 - 110 psi.
Ford E2000 G.M.P. 30-40 psi. max shut off 70-95 psi
VW E8305 G.M.P. 45 psi. Max shut off 100-110 psi.

I figure the closer to stock the better"

Here's the thread.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=125162&highlight=vw+fuel+pump

[4ward]

Alright, for those of you that can't read- I'M USING AN EXTERNAL PUMP These pumps run for 100's of thousands of hours over many years. How can reliability be an issue for one that's only going to get used for 200 hours a year?

Bender, excellent tech I appreciate it very much. If it's $80 retail, I can get it for $60ish, which fits my pocketbook just fine.

Now back to fuel cell questions. Can the return line be plumbed into the top of the tank or does it need to go towards the bottom? I can't see where it matters since it's only refilling the tank.

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ

Now back to fuel cell questions. Can the return line be plumbed into the top of the tank or does it need to go towards the bottom? I can't see where it matters since it's only refilling the tank.


Yes.

mark
orgs mfg

[Bones]

Yes.


Well said Mark :D

Bones :skull1:

[THE_OWL]

Alright, for those of you that can't read- I'M USING AN EXTERNAL PUMP

If you want to get the ball rolling, cool. If youre gonna cry about the responses, good luck.
Ill skip your posts I guess

[4ward]

If youre gonna cry about the responses

Maybe you should heed your own advice?

If you can't answer the question, I really don't care if you read my posts :rattle:

Mark, was that a yes or a yes? :rolleyes: :D

Was checking out the canister this morning, it's definately getting pitched. The only other tube that hooks to it is going into the airtube. I'll just plug the hole in the airtube and call it good.

[Beezil]

The problem in naxja tech lately, is there are some good jeep builders and fabbers who know enough, or have already gathered enough info to complete 95% of their project, but they only need help with a small piece of the puzzle, yet when they ask their questions, some folks come along and try to deconstruct thier entire process.......

[Ed A. Stevens]

Ditto on Marks answer. Foaming of the fuel being dumped can be an issue, but some believe it can also cool the fuel (I do not).

The canister provides an emissions friendly vent for the tank, with activated charcol to clean the potential fumes (opposed to the vented caps of older vehicles). Other then the vent function, most fail to clean vapors after five years (and the other emissions control are so good that it is not detected). You need a fuel vent to counter temperature related expansion and contraction, you may not need the clean vent canister.

[THE_OWL]

Maybe the problem with NAXJA tech "lately" is that these good Jeepers and fabbers arent willing to listen to anything different than what they already have.
Like aluminum

[4ward]

Mr. Owl piss and moan all you want. If I wanted info on whether an internal tank was better than an external, that's what I would've asked for. I stated it more than once that I'm running an external, yet you and others proceeded to go on about internals. Did you read how other folks are doing this and it's working for them? Is your hot rod guy the only person out there that knows about fuel pumps? Are you gonna go dumpin' on B's aluminum thread now too?

I'm not pissed, mad, or put out by any of this and don't think that I care cuz I don't. Everything I do is different, that's what makes me the special kind of annoying person that I am. Folks constantly tell me I can't do this or that, and guess what, I do it and get away with it 80% of the time. If you don't want to read my posts and give good answers to the questions I'm asking, that's fine cuz once again I don't care.

I know this isn't coming out the right way, but oh frickin' well.

Now, how about we bring some tech back into this tech discussion?

What do you folks think about using braided steel for fuel line all the way up? Regular tubing is probably what I'll end up with because of $$$, but if I come up with the scratch and it's doable it would make running the line a lot easier.

[THE_OWL]

Mt Ton
Yea we all get paid to log in here and help you. The only benefit of posts to your open ended thread are for your benefit. yet you say sarcastic things like "those of you who cant read"
Do we all owe you something? And it wasnt directly related to you, it was an answer as to why they are better run in-tank that someone else posted.
Oh and just run vaccum or cooling hose for fuel. reliability wont matter its only 10 times per year. theres my sarcastic response that wont help you at all.

[Kaczman]

Sorry to interrupt the banter with some tech....

Braided line would be pimpin', but expensive. For any of the budget minded guys out there, run the stock pump till it fails. You already have one, so it's free! Cut and flair the stock steel line, attach the rubber line, and you're good to go.

I'm running the stock pump and filter EXTERNALLY without problems. I also ditched the charcoal canister.

(now back to da smack talkin'. )

-Jon

[xjjunkie]

check your local speed shop for hose that goes by the name of push-loc. great stuff after you get it on the fitting you have to cut it off, good to 250 psi, and fairly cheap. as far af the return line, all the mfgs say plumb it into the top w/ a tube conected to the bottom of the bulhhead so that it is about 1.5 inches from the bottom of the fuel cell. this will help w/airation. just a side note .. if your outlet fittings are on the bottom of the fuel cell, make sure that they point toward the back of your rig. you would'nt beleve how many customers of mine put the fittings toward thee engine. hence a delivery problem on acceleration.

scot

[Lincoln]

You could of had the thing built by now if you two would quit whining at each other. :)

Do I have to tell you too? Bitching and whining is my job, now BACK OFF!

And now for you Kaczman. We need to convince him Stainless is the only way possible to get it done. But, can you get it in flat black? Shiney and OneTon just don't seem to fit.

Later,
Lincoln

So funny.

Later,
Lincoln

[xjjunkie]

here's a pic of how it should be, never mind it's a carb set up (still the same. also if you have to use 90' fittings try to use a flowed fitting, not a street 90' the reduce flow by 33%...

scot
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/p27333747e13baff46d810c9a8593e7b5/fb7dee25.jpg

[Bender]

OneTonXJ,

I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to or now when you mentioned "rubber" fuel line but I know my local shops carry two styles of fuel line. One for high pressure fuel injected applications and the other for standard low pressure applications. The high pressure stuff has probably twice as much if not more filament reinforcement in the hose. I used full lenghts of this stuff on my Toyota pickup instead of fooling around with new steel lines. It's been a couple years now and it's still fine. I only put about 8k miles on it a year though... mostly for plowing in the winter.

[Beezil]

fabbers arent willing to listen to anything different than what they already have.

Hey Owlbeak,

BEFORE i POST.....I do research......I search, which is what most folks do NOT do.....

I',m not a know-it-all I'm a wish-I-knew-more kinda guy......

I'm the kind of person who will always consider myself a STUDENT

when i post on naxja, its to find out the missing pc of the puzzle.....like my aluminum thread......

so i have no idea where your recent comment comes from.....

I am a born and raised metal manufacturer, and come from a long line of metal bitches, and the ghosts of my metal bitch relatives are swarming feverishly around you wondering where the fawk yer coming from...........


a little hint.......loose the STFU newbie avatar, and loose the attitude......establish your own credibiltity before you attempt to defile someone elses.....

[F. F.]

The_Owl, perhaps your intentions are best. However, your posts are not coming off in the best light. Perhaps you can reconsider your style of posting. This type of discussion takes the thread off-topic, and will get theads locked/closed, or posts deleted.

Lets all get along and lose the jabs.

[Vug]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ
What do you folks think about using braided steel for fuel line all the way up? Regular tubing is probably what I'll end up with because of $$$, but if I come up with the scratch and it's doable it would make running the line a lot easier.

OneTon

Braided line is nice for dressing up an engine compartment but it is stupid expensive. Summit and Jegs carry 25' coils of alum fuel line. It routes fairly easy, can be bent by hand if form doesn't have to follow function. You'll need to use tube nuts and -AN fittings. -AN fittings are available in steel also, check local suppy houses. 1/3 the cost of the alum ones through a race supply.

My 2 cents
Vug

[SewerBoss]

Sean, I had to redo the fuel cell on my old CJ last year. It was carbed, but some of what I learned should still apply. I ran two steel lines from the cell to the carb. I added a low pressure pump at the cell to help on off camber stuff. The lines were simple and easy. For the vent, I just ran a simple rollover valve. The return line dumped in below this valve in the same opening. I don't know if you already have your cell, but I used an 18 gallon marine cell. They can be picked up for next to nothing, especially used. Mine was aluminum.
Nate

[4ward]

Bringing this one back from the depths of hell.

How about a fuel filter and where to put it. I don't like the large size of the stock filter and I think it may be a good idea to put the filter in front of the pump since I'll be running foam for my fuel slosh issues. Will this allow for the fuel to flow freely to my pump though and what do I need to look out for?

Sean

[Beezil]

jeeze.....

only you could find reasons to dislike something as basic and unthreatening as the stock fuel filter......

i think you should just rubber-band a coffee filter onto the fuel pick up line.

[Fred]

Better to have the filter on the pressure side of the pump. There is quite a bit of pressure drop across the filter.

Fred

[MrShoeBoy]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ
Bringing this one back from the depths of hell.

How about a fuel filter and where to put it. I don't like the large size of the stock filter and I think it may be a good idea to put the filter in front of the pump since I'll be running foam for my fuel slosh issues. Will this allow for the fuel to flow freely to my pump though and what do I need to look out for?

Sean

If you are going to build your own fuel cell, couldnt you also fab up some baffles in the bottom to keep fuel from sloshing around excessevly. Also by using baffles this can keep the movement of fuel from changing any handling or ballance issues when in an off camber situation or when flying down the highway:D

AARON