Dodge "hub-less" hardware.....

I did a little searching, but didn't find much about this.

Is there a big reason why I'm not seeing many Dodge "hub-less" d44 front axle swaps being done? I know some newer Dodge D44's are way wide, many are disco's and are low pinion, but after reading some of the recent threads about Farmer Matt's Warn hub woes, and the hub carnage being seen during those JV runs, I just got to wondering.....

Since selectable lockers are widely available, why not hybrid a Ford High Pinion D44 axle with Dodge knuckles and the hub-less setup? Dunno much about these axles, but would the dodge outer knuckles and outter stub shafts work the same way as the Ford / Chevy swaps are being done? Or for that matter, would one be able to go Ford axle housing (for HP), Chevy outter knuckle (for high steer) and Dodge bearing and stub?

If the Ford, Chevy pieces aren't compatable with Dodge, then is the axle tube diameter on a Ford HP D44 axle the same as a Dodge D44? Could one swap the entire knuckle assy's to put Dodge hub-less parts on?

What's the real benefit to having selectable hubs for hardcore 'wheeling, trailer'd rigs anyway? I know I've heard some say they like the "fuse" that the hub represents keeping more difficult pieces from breakage, but why have the selectable hub at all?

I know, lots of questions in one post...... put please discuss.

Thanks in advance!

Wild ass guess. But I think it has something to do with the odd ball spline count of 32.

Other than that... dont know.

I'm no dodge expert either, but I've heard that the bearings and spindles are weak on the early Dodge 44's that use a 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern. As far as lockout hubs on trailered rigs go, yeah, I see no reason why they wouldn't use drive flanges. My .00002 cents worth. Jeff

Scrappy said:

Wild ass guess. But I think it has something to do with the odd ball spline count of 32.

Other than that... dont know.

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Spline count on which end? What makes it oddball?

I'm wondering if Dodge made the hub-less in a 3/4 ton D44. I would think that would be more than stout enough for 35's or even 37's.

Jeff 98XJ WI said:

I'm no dodge expert either, but I've heard that the bearings and spindles are weak on the early Dodge 44's that use a 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern. As far as lockout hubs on trailered rigs go, yeah, I see no reason why they wouldn't use drive flanges. My .00002 cents worth. Jeff

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Well I'm suggesting the hub-less version to get away from the weak spindles. I'm also suggesting this swap to get away from a 5 on 4.5 set up. I know I've seen a 6 or 8 lug Dodge and it looked like a larger version of the D30 unit bearing and stub shaft.

I'm heading to Google.....

Edit: Here's a pic of what I'm talking about......

I've got a couple of those fronts ( 8 bolt D-44 Dodge 3/4 ton), in the shop (spares). My Mud truck still has the original 1976 front in it. The inner seals at the hub fail often and if not fixed quickly, cause hub/stub shaft bearing failure.
The front has some odd steering and takes a reverse rotation steering box. I've always left the front open, to avoid excess stress on it. And run the truck with a spooled rear Dana 60. I've run it with both 36's and 33/16.50's and never had the front differential parts or the knuckles fail yet.
I keep some spare inner seals, a bearing set and a front drivshaft handy. I had to make a puller to take the hub bearings out, a standard puller won't get it done.
I've been running that front for many years, with a 203 transfer and a 360 (estimated 350 horse) motor with a 727 tranny. The front drive shaft Carden centering spring has worn out (sand) and the front hub bearings can get full of sand and self destruct, when the seals fail, other than that, it has been pretty darned reliable. And taken a heck of lot of abuse.

I guess no one will catch on to what Troy is talking about. He's refering to the '95 and newer 44. Scrappy is thinking of the hodge podge Dodge 60's or rears or something. I can't remember the whole story on the odd shafts but the D44 isn't it, they are 30 spline inners (doesn't really matter since the question asked about using a Ford hi-pinion third).

These two don't really apply but I thought I'd throw them out there:
1. All are disconnect.
2. All are low pinion.

Even though the design could technically be stronger it still has the 297 sized joint. Since alloy shafts can't be had the ears on the stub are no better than the old style spicer shafts. Completely ruins the idea of getting any more than stock stregth out of it.

I believe 8mud's answers concerning the bearing seals still pertain to the pre-80 5x4.5 pattern. The design of the new Dodge stuff closely replicates the stock XJ pieces and I don't really see that as an issue.

94 dodge and newer and the reason is no one makes alloy stub shafts for it , and the stock stub shafts are weaker then stock hubs so its pointless untill somone makes an alloy stub shaft. you could cyro it but the ears are still crap

Oh is this hardcore..................

caglezxj said:

Oh is this hardcore..................

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Thank you for providing your excellent contribution.

Troy the 32 spline inners are on the piss poor excuse of a D60 Dodge used 94 and newer. The D44 is standard issue 30 spline inners. As mentioned above the stubs are going to be the "weak link" - no good stub shaft available, just stock. Probably cost you cubic dollars to have a good set made but some one out there should be able to do it - it's just machine work.

8Mud is correct on the old school Dodge D44 5 on 4.5 setup. Seal inspection and regular maintenance is key to making that setup live. Here again no "good" stub shaft is available.

Bob

Thanks Bob.

So, what I'm gathering from those in the know is....

1) Hub-less eliminates the protruding selectable hub - which many have indicated is the "fuse" in most setups. If there's gonna be a break, it's likely to happen in the selectable hub.

2) Hub-less isn't any stronger than hub'd spindles - and the stub shaft would tend to be the "fuse" in that situation.

3) So, basically, going hub-less really doesn't have much of a benefit either way except that if a stub broke, it'd take a little less work to swap it out since there's no selectable hub to have to pull apart first.

4) If I were to build a HP Ford D44, swap in Dodge hub-less knuckles and use a solid locker...... I wouldn't be changing much over the HP D30 / solid locker / 297 shafts setup I have now - except for stronger gear set and maybe the ball joints?

Sound about right?

About the only thing I can see you missed is the much improved brakes you'd gain with the D44. I'm currently building a D40 Hybrid (HPD30 center w/30 spline ARB and all the rest of it D44) and the difference in brake size is rather substantial. Looking forward to better brakes in the '90.

YELLAHEEP said:

Sound about right?

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I would agree. Also I don't know of anyway to get high steering on one of the Dodge knuckles.

My philosophy is your ok building a 44 with spicer shafts if you haven't invested the money in a 30. Buying alloys gets you close to the same strength.

The stub may be weaker in a spindle design but a chromo stub is still much stronger than the ears on spicer shaft.

If I wasn't so scatter brained tonight I'd probably make sense.

Lincoln, the early Dodge system (75-77) has flat top knuckles with the drivers side already drilled and tapped for a high steer arm. The later style (94+) that Troy is on about will not take a traditional high steer arm, or any at all?

My philosophy is your ok building a 44 with spicer shafts if you haven't invested the money in a 30. Buying alloys gets you close to the same strength.

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and with using a 30 spline D30 carrier you can run chromo D44 shafts...

Bob

I am about to pick these up, does this sound right?

Originally Posted by *******
Not calling you a liar, but where did you get 33sp outers?

What is this axle out of?

Do you have to run drive slugs, or can you run lockouts?


'01 Ram 1500 Off-Road. 1.37" 33 spline outers. Same size shaft as the late model Dana 60 and AAM 925 stubs.

No slugs or lock-outs, they are unit bearings like the TJ uses but much stronger. It has a CAD system which can be vacum operated or manullay or I have a CTM 300 M shaft to eliminate it altogether.

Either way its substantially stronger then any other stock 44 (weak spot is still inner shafts though or 5-760X ujoints)

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This sound good for a full width swap?

Know this is an old thread. Just felt like throwing this up to get a visual of what is being discussed.

http://www.pavementsucks.com/tech/hub.php

im not sure if they changed design but the 1994 d44 unit bearings are pure crap , if you regularly go to the beach dont bother youll be changing unitbearings like your underwear. somone needs to step up and make a real good greasable unit bearing for the dodge d44

88rockxj said:

im not sure if they changed design but the 1994 d44 unit bearings are pure crap..........

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Read the thread.

already did, but thanks for pointing the obvious out. its 94 up not 95. so unless youre gonna use the old style dodge fulltime stubs/hubs. to my knowledge they dont make a chromo stub for that, im probably wrong though. but arnt we here to learn? i am