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how do you like your crown vic disk conversion?

Kejtar

PostMaster General
NAXJA Member
I'll be tackling it probably tomorrow (depending on what time they will let me off work). Anyways, I was talking with my dad today and he said that the disks and pads looked rather puny and that my 2.5" D44 drums are probably giving me more stopping power then the disks would due to bigger surface area contact on the shoes to drums vs pads to disks.....
Anyways, I'm 99% set on doing the conversion, but he did raise a valid and I'm curious as to what do y'all think about that.

Btw, this is going onto a 97.
 
I dont know anything about this swap, so if you can take step-by-step pix and post a "How To" that would be great!

Anyway, regardless of surface contact, the mechanics of disk brakes make them far more effective than drum. And, when wet they work much better, and dry a lot faster.

Thanks!
Andrew
 
Lincoln Towncar versus a Crown Vic, a D35 versus a D44, otherwise an identical swap ;). I finished it today and have driven it a total of 20 miles or so and that's all it took for me to be impressed.

I'm running about 6.5" of lift, 33s, locked front & rear and this made a significant and noticeable improvement on the road. I can only imagine that it will be a huge improvement offroad. The drum brakes I was running, 1.75" x 10", were less than marginal. They were to a point where I made some trail decisions with the brakes first in my thought process.

My project was not without some hassles...here's a link:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=640723#post640723
 
vetteboy said:
Hey, I finally got those pics of the rear line plumbing for ya. I'll upload them tonight.
Cool! With last minute XMas shopping I didn't get home till late so I won't be able to touch the brakes now (I wanna start and finish 'em in one shot)
 
Kejtar said:
I'll be tackling it probably tomorrow (depending on what time they will let me off work). Anyways, I was talking with my dad today and he said that the disks and pads looked rather puny and that my 2.5" D44 drums are probably giving me more stopping power then the disks would due to bigger surface area contact on the shoes to drums vs pads to disks.....
Anyways, I'm 99% set on doing the conversion, but he did raise a valid and I'm curious as to what do y'all think about that.

Btw, this is going onto a 97.

I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but I'd stay with the drums you have the big ones already.
Drums and disk have their own good and bad points.
 
tompatjr said:
I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but I'd stay with the drums you have the big ones already.
Drums and disk have their own good and bad points.
Can you be more specific? This was the whole point of this question.
 
Drums advantages stopping power, parking brake that will hold, already there, factory parts, won't warp easily.

Drums disadvantages more brake fade (repeated high speed stops), more parts, must keep adjusted (unless your lucky), must wash out after mudding.

Disk advantages less complex (one moving part), self cleaning some what, self adjusting

Disk Disadvantges, not as strong, will have to be set to your application, have to fab them somewhat, will have to remember pads from this rotor from that, parking brake probably won't work as well.
 
I'd say tompatjj is correct on most of his points. Don't expect to get the stopping power of a Porsche by doing this swap.

My list of reasons for doing it was this: drums were past max. machining diameter, and I was doing all new bearings over the whole axle. Rather than buy new drums ($$ for the D44), and since I had it apart anyway, and since I had a parts crown vic sitting around, I figured I'd try it.

It stops better than it did, and in fact at the state inspection station I noticed a slightly higher rear bias than stock. Whether this is from replacing worn drum parts, or swapping in a ZJ booster, master cyl, and prop valve I don't know. The problem with doing so many things at once is that you can't isolate where the most improvement came from.

Things that I like MUCH better: braking feel and pedal modulation (the 'brake fade' tompatjr mentioned), easier to maintain, and much better control on the trail. My past experience was that if I got a tiny bit of moisture the rear would either lock up instantly or not do anything at all. There's this one obstacle we encounter a lot that is a deepish fish bowl followed by a very steep hill climb, and I used to worry about having to stop on that hill climb and not having the rear brakes work, and sliding back into the bowl. Now I've got a lot more confidence in the rear holding power - immediately after getting soaked.

Drums do have better static holding power when dry, and also have theoretically better stopping power because there's more pad area in contact. However they seldom work to their best potential because of things like adjustment, improperly turned drums, dirt and debris, and so on.

[/lecture]

Kejtar, here's the pics I was talking about, I apologize for the crappy low light sensitivity on my camera. I think you can make out enough detail though.

Driver's side:
brakes1.jpg


The tab immediately under the leaf spring is the stock softline mount from the Crown Vic. I welded a bolt to the axle tube, which goes through that tab and holds it in place. I also cut the hardline fitting from the Crown Vic and put it on the factory D44 hardline, then trimmed to length and reflared the end.

Passenger side:
brakes2.jpg


Here you can see what I mean about the line exiting on top of the caliper rather than on the bottom - the driver's side is the same way. You have the option of orienting it however you want due to the symmetric bolt pattern. I chose this way to keep the lines out of possible harm's way. The problem here is the bleeder winds up on the bottom of the caliper, which means the caliper must be removed in order to bleed it properly. I've had excellent luck just removing the caliper, holding it in the right orientation, and gravity bleeding the rears one at a time, starting with the passenger side.

The line plumbing is the same method: welded a bolt to the axle tube, mounted the stock crown vic softline to it, matched and reflared the factory D44 hardline.

Parts list: Crown Vic caliper brackets, calipers, rotors, pads, softlines. The rotor needs to be slightly modified in order to fit over the little nub in the middle of the axle flange - 5 minutes with a die grinder and you'll be set. You'll also need to grind down some ribbing on the caliper bracket to make it sit flush, and also grind out the center hole to allow for the slightly larger D44 wheelbearings and seals. Make sure to give more than enough clearance here - I didn't the first time, and buggered the axle tube seal putting it in.

On the D44 end, I used the Rubi retainer plates, redrilled.

HTH? Let me know if you have any other questions.
 
I ran a Ford Explorer brake line and it attaches to the main rear hardline on the body and provides an extended flex line to the axle and then to the DS caliper, all as one piece. The PS stock line threads right in to it to run a hardline to the passenger side. From there do as someone mentioned above. Cut the tube and use the Ford connector and reflare the line before threading in to the CV PS short brake hose.

bh380376-1.jpg
 
John90XJ said:
I ran a Ford Explorer brake line and it attaches to the main rear hardline on the body and provides an extended flex line to the axle and then to the DS caliper, all as one piece.

Ooo, clever. I was not aware of that piece when I did mine. I'd recommend that over what I did for sure.
 
It shows at Partsamerica.com, Checker/Schucks/Kragen as being $19.50. That about the same money as a YJ line. All in all it's easier and only one line to reflare.
 
vetteboy said:
I'd say tompatjj is correct on most of his points. Don't expect to get the stopping power of a Porsche by doing this swap.
:D
My list of reasons for doing it was this: drums were past max. machining diameter, and I was doing all new bearings over the whole axle. Rather than buy new drums ($$ for the D44), and since I had it apart anyway, and since I had a parts crown vic sitting around, I figured I'd try it.
Yeah, the damn drums ended up being $75 each as the less expensive ones were just a hair to shallow and dragged on the shoes. Kind of hard to explain, but in essence they touched where they didn't.
Things that I like MUCH better: braking feel and pedal modulation (the 'brake fade' tompatjr mentioned), easier to maintain, and much better control on the trail. My past experience was that if I got a tiny bit of moisture the rear would either lock up instantly or not do anything at all. There's this one obstacle we encounter a lot that is a deepish fish bowl followed by a very steep hill climb, and I used to worry about having to stop on that hill climb and not having the rear brakes work, and sliding back into the bowl. Now I've got a lot more confidence in the rear holding power - immediately after getting soaked.
Yeah, that is one of my reasons for considering the upgrade as well.
Drums do have better static holding power when dry, and also have theoretically better stopping power because there's more pad area in contact. However they seldom work to their best potential because of things like adjustment, improperly turned drums, dirt and debris, and so on.
Yup, I had the adjuster seize which resulted in rear having less stopping power which resulted in... well, one minivan needing some body work. This is something that I would like to avoid in the future.

Kejtar, here's the pics I was talking about, I apologize for the crappy low light sensitivity on my camera. I think you can make out enough detail though.
They're good enough. I think I have most of the brake line routing figure out:
I will go directly to the tblock with one of the softlines and then on the other side I will either make a new hard line of the right length or reflare the current one (the current one is somewhat old and might turn out to be brittle ) to be the right length and then I'll run the soft line. I'm still not 100% sure how I'll place the calipers: I might end up rotating them so that I won't have to take them off to blead them if I can get the brake lines all figured out nice and neat :D
Parts list: Crown Vic caliper brackets, calipers, rotors, pads, softlines. The rotor needs to be slightly modified in order to fit over the little nub in the middle of the axle flange - 5 minutes with a die grinder and you'll be set. You'll also need to grind down some ribbing on the caliper bracket to make it sit flush, and also grind out the center hole to allow for the slightly larger D44 wheelbearings and seals. Make sure to give more than enough clearance here - I didn't the first time, and buggered the axle tube seal putting it in.

On the D44 end, I used the Rubi retainer plates, redrilled.
Yup, got all the done and ready. Only thing that needs doing is grinding the ribbing on the bracket.
All that I need now is some time!

Thanks for the pics.
 
Kejtar said:
I will go directly to the tblock with one of the softlines and then on the other side I will either make a new hard line of the right length or reflare the current one (the current one is somewhat old and might turn out to be brittle ) to be the right length and then I'll run the soft line.

Funny you mention that. About two weeks after doing the swap, I had a hard stop on the highway and blew a leak in the rear hardline going to the passenger side. That was interesting.

Oh, something else I forgot to mention...the driver's side Crown Vic softline actually has a T at the hardline/softline junction. That's the distribution point for going to the passenger side on the OEM setup. I found an extra flare fitting, welded over the hole, and screwed it in as a plug for the outlet on the T that didn't get used.

Here's a mid-process pic:

disc1.jpg


and also, what I ended up doing at the proportioning valve when I got rid of the ABS junk:

disc9.jpg


There's a small brass t-fitting (Napa part #7900) in the 'front' outlet of the prop valve that distributes it to the driver side and passenger side, because that used to happen after the ABS pump. This is probably unique to my own personal clusterfawk though.
 
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