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6 speed in an XJ (who wants to be first?)

BigDadys94xj

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Naples, New York
I have been reading quite a bit about the 2005 TJ and its new 6 speed manual tranny and I got to thinking who in the NAXJA will be the first to attempt a swap into an XJ? Any takers? Is it even possible (seems to me it is). I know it would be expensive but would it be worth it for what would be gained? I would like to be the first but I dont have the $ to try it at the moment. But if anyone wants to be the first I will gladly load up my tools and lend a helping hand!
 
you supply the tranny and t-case, and i'll swap it in mine. i'll even give you a 94 AW4 and 231 in exchange.


i think they are too new and too expensive for anyone to be swapping right now. as soon as they start hitting the junkyards I would think people would be all over them.

what's the 1st gear ratio?
 
1 - 5.014:1
2 - 2.831:1
3 - 1.789:1
4 - 1.256:1
5 - 1.000:1
6 - 0.828:1
Rev. - 4.569:1

From some random forum, no idea if its correct. Jeep website says its the NSG370, which is the same as the diesel liberty that has a 4.46:1 first gear.
 
I would love to swap in a 6 speed but I want a steeper 6th gear. My dad has a T-56 in his Impala and it has a .5 overdrive 6th gear. Even with 4.10s and stock tires he runs lower RPM down the interstate than I do with my 4.10s and 32s in my Jeep. The first gear really sucks though.

AARON
 
MrShoeBoy said:
I would love to swap in a 6 speed but I want a steeper 6th gear. My dad has a T-56 in his Impala and it has a .5 overdrive 6th gear. Even with 4.10s and stock tires he runs lower RPM down the interstate than I do with my 4.10s and 32s in my Jeep. The first gear really sucks though.

AARON
what's so great about low rpms? it doesn't have a whole lot to do with gas mileage if that's what you're thinking.
 
BrettM said:
what's so great about low rpms? it doesn't have a whole lot to do with gas mileage if that's what you're thinking.


so you are saying that if you let your car sit at 3000 rpms, it will use the same amount of gas as 2000 rpms? i dont think so. the amount of rpms has the BIGGEST affect on gas milage. if you can go faster at a lower rpm, you are going to acheive a better mile per gallon.
 
redyouch said:
so you are saying that if you let your car sit at 3000 rpms, it will use the same amount of gas as 2000 rpms? i dont think so. the amount of rpms has the BIGGEST affect on gas milage. if you can go faster at a lower rpm, you are going to acheive a better mile per gallon.

on a flat road, this is true

but remeber it's the ease at which your engine is running that determines your MPG
 
redyouch said:
so you are saying that if you let your car sit at 3000 rpms, it will use the same amount of gas as 2000 rpms? i dont think so. the amount of rpms has the BIGGEST affect on gas milage. if you can go faster at a lower rpm, you are going to acheive a better mile per gallon.

Not necessarly. Going faster at lower RPMs than someone else just means you have just means you have higher (numerically lower) gears. Gas milage depends on other things a lot more than gearing. How about intake size, exhaust, injector size, etc.
 
I don't know about your 4.0, but mine doesn't like running at 2000 rpms, has no power, and requires more throttle at 2000 rpms. More throttle of course means more gas is used per second. If we're going the same speed and you're at 2000 rpm and I'm at 3000 rpm cruising (everything but gearing being equal), I'll be getting better gas mileage, especially when we hit an incline.
 
redyouch said:
so you are saying that if you let your car sit at 3000 rpms, it will use the same amount of gas as 2000 rpms? i dont think so. the amount of rpms has the BIGGEST affect on gas milage. if you can go faster at a lower rpm, you are going to acheive a better mile per gallon.

If your statement is ture then, why do people who regear to lower gears after adding big tires usally get a improvement in MPG? They increased their RPM and got better mileage.
 
redyouch said:
so you are saying that if you let your car sit at 3000 rpms, it will use the same amount of gas as 2000 rpms? i dont think so. the amount of rpms has the BIGGEST affect on gas milage. if you can go faster at a lower rpm, you are going to acheive a better mile per gallon.
wow, we sure hijacked that fast :D

gas mileage is a function of speed vs. fuel consumption. fuel consumption is directly related to air intake, which is directly related to throttle body opening, which is directly related to gas-pedal position. therefore gas mileage is a function of speed and gas-pedal position.

sure, RPMs will affect how much throttle you need to use, I find that my 88 4.0 likes to cruise at about 25-2600
 
There is a point of dimishing returns to that idea.

The ideal cruising speed for an engine is that speed at which it makes peak torque. This is true at whatever speed (and guaranteed that you will be cruising at 5252RPM or less...)

Peak torque RPM is the crankshaft speed at which the engine is experiencing peak volumetric efficiency, and a relatively low Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (fuel used, in pounds, per horsepower generated - I'd have to look up the unit time, but I think it's per hour.)

If you try to work "away" from the torque peak, you will find that your fule consumption will actually go up slightly due to the decreased efficiency of the engine.

CASE IN POINT - My DD is an 88/4.0/BA-10/3.07. Using fifth gear, I was getting about 18-19 highway MPG. I did a little math, and found that I was cruising on the highway about 1500RPM lower than torque peak. A little more showed that in FOURTH gear, I would cruise at about 2800 RPM, in FIFTH gear I was down around 1600 (which I already knew.)

I stopped using FIFTH gear, and saw an increase in fuel mileage from the 18-19 I mentioned earlier to about 22-23 highway when cruising at about 2800 RPM, which illustrates my point.

This is something I keep telling people when they are trying to select gearing - you have to account for your cruising speeds (which I typically figure around 35/45/65MPH) for daily drivers, as well as tyre size and transmission ratios, before you select axle gearing. I'd have to check my notes, but right now my OD gear is useless until about 90-95MPH (if I want to retain cruise mileage) - or until I put in 4.56 at the axle to complement my 31's

Try it sometime and you'll see similar results - "ye canna change the laws of physics!" I'd be happy to help with the math if you need it, but it's really quite simple (I'd just have to find the equations again...)

For a six-speed gearbox, I'd be more interested in DEEP primary gears (perhaps GRANNY-2 and SUPER-GRANNY-1) than OD and DOUBLE OD. Put 1st down around 7.5:1, 2d around 4:1 (and space the rest accordingly) and I'd probably take about a 28-25% overdrive with matching axle gearing for a good box. With that gearing, I'd also take a flywheel with an inertia ring or loaded with Muntz metal for low-rpm, high-load takeoff. What do you think?

5-90
 
Whats the gears in an AX-15? That first gear seems pretty damn low. Do you just start in second most of the time with the 6 speed?

As for idleing down the highway, doesn't the 4.0 have a ton of torque down low so it should have no problems pushing the XJ down the highway at 2-2500 RPM?
 
Ditto.

A six speed is nice in sporting vehicles because of the close gear ratios allowed, thereby minimizing RPM drop between shifts, and increasing gas mileage in that way.

I just installed an NV 5600 6 speed in place of an OD 5 speed in a Cummins powered truck. WE didn't gain any gearing on the top or on the bottom, but in the middle gears, it's like a whole new truck.

Don't even think of the 5600 for an XJ though......WAY bigger than even my NV4500. 365 pounds dry. 32 inches long from bell to tail. 5.7 first, .73 OD.

5-90 said:
There is a point of dimishing returns to that idea.

The ideal cruising speed for an engine is that speed at which it makes peak torque. This is true at whatever speed (and guaranteed that you will be cruising at 5252RPM or less...)

Peak torque RPM is the crankshaft speed at which the engine is experiencing peak volumetric efficiency, and a relatively low Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (fuel used, in pounds, per horsepower generated - I'd have to look up the unit time, but I think it's per hour.)

If you try to work "away" from the torque peak, you will find that your fule consumption will actually go up slightly due to the decreased efficiency of the engine.

CASE IN POINT - My DD is an 88/4.0/BA-10/3.07. Using fifth gear, I was getting about 18-19 highway MPG. I did a little math, and found that I was cruising on the highway about 1500RPM lower than torque peak. A little more showed that in FOURTH gear, I would cruise at about 2800 RPM, in FIFTH gear I was down around 1600 (which I already knew.)

I stopped using FIFTH gear, and saw an increase in fuel mileage from the 18-19 I mentioned earlier to about 22-23 highway when cruising at about 2800 RPM, which illustrates my point.

This is something I keep telling people when they are trying to select gearing - you have to account for your cruising speeds (which I typically figure around 35/45/65MPH) for daily drivers, as well as tyre size and transmission ratios, before you select axle gearing. I'd have to check my notes, but right now my OD gear is useless until about 90-95MPH (if I want to retain cruise mileage) - or until I put in 4.56 at the axle to complement my 31's

Try it sometime and you'll see similar results - "ye canna change the laws of physics!" I'd be happy to help with the math if you need it, but it's really quite simple (I'd just have to find the equations again...)

For a six-speed gearbox, I'd be more interested in DEEP primary gears (perhaps GRANNY-2 and SUPER-GRANNY-1) than OD and DOUBLE OD. Put 1st down around 7.5:1, 2d around 4:1 (and space the rest accordingly) and I'd probably take about a 28-25% overdrive with matching axle gearing for a good box. With that gearing, I'd also take a flywheel with an inertia ring or loaded with Muntz metal for low-rpm, high-load takeoff. What do you think?

5-90
 
I remembe reading that lexus has a 6 spd ax-15 somewhere - not sure about it, but someone was talking about it...
 
basalt51 said:
1 - 5.014:1
2 - 2.831:1
3 - 1.789:1
4 - 1.256:1
5 - 1.000:1
6 - 0.828:1
Rev. - 4.569:1

From some random forum, no idea if its correct.

The ratios for the AX15 are as follows:
1st 3.83, 2nd 2.33, 3rd 1.44, 4th 1.00, 5th 0.79 and final drive 3.07:1.

Since I have 27.4" tires on my XJ, the gearing is just about perfect in combination with my 4.6 stroker so I see no reason to change it.
1st gear on that 6-speed gearbox would be totally useless to me. I get enough wheelspin as it is with a 3.83 ratio 1st gear so I'd probably find myself launching in 2nd gear with the 6-speed.
The only way the 6-speed would be any use to me is if I have a 2.45 ratio final drive. That way 1st to 5th ratios would be almost the same:

AX15 + 3.07 gears:

1st: 3.83 x 3.07 = 11.76
2nd: 2.33 x 3.07 = 7.15
3rd: 1.44 x 3.07 = 4.42
4th: 1.00 x 3.07 = 3.07
5th: 0.79 x 3.07 = 2.43

NSG370 + 2.45 gears:

1st: 5.014 x 2.45 = 12.28 (4.4% shorter than my existing 1st gear)
2nd: 2.831 x 2.45 = 6.94 (3.0% taller than my existing 2nd gear)
3rd: 1.789 x 2.45 = 4.38 (same as my existing 3rd gear)
4th: 1.256 x 2.45 = 3.08 (same as my existing 4th gear)
5th: 1.000 x 2.45 = 2.45 (same as my existing 5th gear)
6th: 0.828 x 2.45 = 2.03

Since my existing 5th gear is an overdrive, 6th gear would be a second taller overdrive that I don't really need.
 
MJ1990buildup said:
on a flat road, this is true

but remeber it's the ease at which your engine is running that determines your MPG


unless your girlfriend is 280 lbs. that might cause a dip in the old MPG. :D
 
BrettM said:
the only reason a .5 OD would be nice is to run MOG (7.56:1) axles on a DD

Thats the exact reason I would like a .5 OD. I could run SUPER low gears in the diffs and still be able to cruise down the interstate with out bouncing off the rev limiter.

I didnt think that comment would cause this post to go crazy...:D

AARON
 
I have 98 Sport Manual Trans mission. 30's but expect to go bigger (33-35) when my tires ware out and my springs go flat. 1-2 years

I am interested in swaping my 5 for a 6 if what I think is true is true....

Regearing the transmission will have the same effect as regearing the axels?

Can someone point me to some info on gearing, transmissions, and efficiency? Good technical articles, not just theory.

Thanks
 
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