View Full Version : AX 15 gear oil
I just came across PEnzoil Synchromesh... it said that is specifically made to meet and exceed Chrysler specs for (both numbers came of the bottle):
4874464
ms9224
Do those numbers look familiar to anyone? Is it a good replacement oil that will satisfy our GL3 standards?
Kejtar
ChiXJeff
04-27-2003, 15:04
After pulling the Pennzoil spec sheet for Synchromesh, I Googled for MS-9224.
First link was http://www.nagca.com/grandtech/JeepTrans%20Fluids.pdf which looks like a scanned Mopar publication.
If it is the real thing, then Synchromesh probably isn't for the AX15, but will work in the NV3500.
Here's a straight link for the Pennzoil spec sheet (I had to go through a search engine):http://www.pennzoil-quakerstate.com/Tech/Pdsheet/QuakerState/Gear&Transmission/pdf/SynchromeshFluid.PDF
Googling for MS-9684 yielded nothing that looked promising.
ChiXJeff
Hmm.... and I was hoping for a less expensive alternative... oh well :)
btt
Has anyone done any follow-up on this? Where are guys like Rags and MJR when we need them? Is there a Mopar tech out therewho can call the Mopar Star Tech line and ask about this?
I was looking at this juice for the Peugeot tranny. The bottle specifically says it
"Provides excellent oxidation stability, low temperature performance, synchronizer performance and is compatible with yellow metals, such as bronze, brass and copper components found in manual transaxles and transmissions."
Sure would be nice if it would be acceptable for the older manual trannies.
ryurabbit
04-30-2003, 22:36
I can call star tech hotline but why bother!?. They will simply say use the mopar brand and everything else is not recommended.:bunny:
Mopar sells a manual transmission gear lube. What spec is it? If it is MS9224, then the question for Star Tech is -- can MS9224-spec manual tranny lube be used in the AX-15 and BA10/5 manual transmissions?
UPDATE
I just spent a couple of very frustrating hours on the phone and Internet, talking to both DaimlerChrysler and Pennzoil. Here's what I seem to have found out:
(1) The Pennzoil "Synchromesh Manual TRansmission Fluid" product, which meets Mopar spec MS9224, does NOT contain any extreme pressure additives and can be used only in the NVG3500, 3550, and 4500 transmissions. It is not suitable for use in the other manual transmissions.
(2) Chrysler tech has no idea what to use in the Peugeot BA-10/5 transmission. The FSM calls for 75W90 GL-5 and that's all the guy knew. However, that's the product that eats synchronizers, and the tranny shifts hard with that lube. The Pennzoil engineer said to use 75W90 GL-5 for the BA-10/5.
(3) According to DaimlerChrysler, the AX-4, AX-5 and AX-15 should use the Mopar product meeting spec MS9684, which is rated as a 75W90 GL-3 lubricant. HOWEVER, according to the engineer at Pennzoil (who claims to have all the tech bulletins from DaimlerChysler, that product should be used only in the AX-series trannies 1998 and newer, and the older ones should use 75W90 GL-5 gear lube (which is what the '94 FSM calls for.
Now I'm thoroughly confused. I can put the bottle of Pennzoil juice on the shelf for the 2000 XJ, but I don't know what I should be using in the older ones. Where can I buy Red Line?
ryurabbit
05-01-2003, 15:14
According to my service fluid tech card the proper fluid for all
AX transmissions is MS-9684 or mopar part#4897622AA GL-3 gear lube. There is no listing for BA/5 trans!:bunny:
GSequoia
05-01-2003, 15:24
Eagle: Red Line should be available in a performance shop. Alternatively, if you have a motorcycle place around (that caters to the sport-bike crowd) they should have it, it's very popular for bikes, that's where I learned how damn good the stuff is! (600cc motor that had been run hard for about 12k, had to be rebuilt because an SOB dumped a peice of metal into one of the carbs, intentionally, took out a valve seat.! Anyway, my buddy and I took the head off, cylindars looked brand new.)
The Peugeot BA10/5 transmission use MoparŪ 75W - 90, API Grade GL - 5.
The AX 4/5/15 from 91-96 use MoparŪ 75W - 90, API Grade GL - 5.
The AX 5/15 from 97-01 use MoparŪ 75W - 90, API Grade GL - 3.
There are some TSB's over the years stating not to use additives or any other viscosity fluid in these transmissions. JE-05B-89, JE-50A-89, JE-27B-90, and 21-03-93.
On the subject of current fluid recommendation I believe They may recommend the later GL - 3 but I will have to check this for myself.
Mike in NJ
05-02-2003, 09:58
So, it's the 97+ AX-15's which use GL-3?
Thanks for clearing that up, Mike. With all of the static floating around about this, I was starting to get concerned that I used GL-5 in my '92.
Mike in NJ :patriot:
MJR could you confirm that again please? I'da sworn the older AX-15's used the GL-3 and the newer ones use the GL-5. I thought the GL-5 superseded the GL-3. I'm sooo confused now. Thanks. TC
I jusy checked Red-Lines site, it does not address the GL-3 issue specifically. Is Red-Line supposed to be the way to go in these tranny's, if so which PN is the correct one. BTW, they list Summit as a dealer for their products. TC
It's all hearsay.. but I did hear of someone ruining the tranny with redline :(
Personally I think I will stick with the oem oil just to be one the safe side..
Kejtar
Originally posted by Kejtar
It's all hearsay.. but I did hear of someone ruining the tranny with redline :(
Personally I think I will stick with the oem oil just to be one the safe side..
Kejtar
But WHICH OEM oil? It appears that Mopar offers at least two and possibly three different manual tranny gear lubes. I'm hoping MJR can get a more complete answer from the Mopar Star Tech answer line. Until then, I'm more confused than I was before. (Actually, until Kejtar opened up this thread I wasn't at all confused. I was quite sure of what to use ... unfortunately, it appears I was also completely wrong.)
:) :) :) Yeah... it is a bit confusing as the same AX15 takes different gear throughout the years :( :(
When I go to the dealership though the quart bottle that I buy does specifically say AX15 on it...
Kejtar
Originally posted by TC NAXJA Member
MJR could you confirm that again please? I'da sworn the older AX-15's used the GL-3 and the newer ones use the GL-5. I thought the GL-5 superseded the GL-3. I'm sooo confused now. Thanks. TC
Ok I have already verified this information based on all the service/owners manuals for these years. I cannot tell you several things right now like why was the fluid spec changed and can GL-3 be used as a replacement. I have a call into an engineer at DC about these questions.
If I remember correctly there was a discussion a while back about this topic and supposedly the unoficial explanation that was given to a guy who went through 2 trannies by the dealership was that there was a typo in the manuals for 2 or 3 years..... Few people caught it as quite few rarely change gear oil in the tranny..... but some do. In any case on a second rebuilt the guy said that the tranny came with a hand writtne note stapled to the packing material saying to use specifically GL3 oil....
Now that's all I now :)
Kejtar
I'm with ya Eagle, up until now I thought I had all of this correct in my head, now I'm not so sure. Here's what got me checking into this; last night a buddy called and asked me the details of the GL-3 issue since we had talked about it a year or so ago. He just finished tearing down his '94 AX-15 (YJ,same tranny) and found all the teeth on the syncros were worn away, everything else looked perfectly fine. He has plenty of experience with different types of manual trans and has never seen this before. The fact that only the brass was worn sounded exactly like the problems described by the GL-3/GL-5 lube misapplications.
As I understood it, the type of brass used in the different years was affected by the amount of EP additive in the gear oil, the higher the number the greater amount of EP in the oil. GL-1 had none and GL-5 having the most. If you want to really screw up yer brain, some drivetrain mfgr's even recommended using 50wt detergent motor oil instead of 90wt gear lube in manual transmission applications (not diffs tho). 50wt motor oil is close to the same viscosity as 90wt gear lube,they're measured differently.
Anxiously awaiting the straight scoop..... TC
Yeah, and the Pennzoil Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid not only does not have any EP additives, it also doesn't list any viscosity index rating.
I'm very tempted to buy a gallon of GearMoly and run that along with the Pennzoil stuff. I sure hope MJR comes up with something definitive.
I just bought some GL3 from the dealer, it specifically states for use with the AX-5 and AX-15 transmissions. $15/bottle, I got three, I have to check if that was enough for the oil change. HTH
Judd W. VA
05-08-2003, 04:55
It is the zinc additive in GL-4 and 5 that is the material distructive to the brass synchros used in a number of Jap transmissions. Nissan is an example of another mfg that has this same requirement on many of their's. Do not think is the EP part that is the problem. That pretty much determines the 'slip' factor of the lube and would effect the cone engagement onto the gear. Do not use an engine oil in these transmissions. They are not designed for that kind of lubricity. My CRX trans uses that which i think is pretty dang cool, and i use Mobile 1 synth engine oil in that as well as in it's engine.
Do not know why earlier AX-15's would have different synchors in them that would make them suitable for use with GL-5. Does not make sense they would make a change in the later years. Nissan has required GL-3 all along. There has been information occasionally that there was a typo in FSM's as to the GL type. Be safe and use GL-3 in all of the AX-5 and AX-15 transmissions.
I am still trying to sort this out.
GL-5 is rated for more severe use than the GL-3. I am still trying to find out why they changed.
I can't say what caused the syncro damage in the YJ listed above but there are a lot of factors involved such as climate, servicing, useage, etc...
Bottom line I think is use what is recommended in your owners/factory service manual for your year.
I also ran across some Toyota MR-2 information and they also changed back and forth between GL-5 and Gl-3.
I am going to do some more research on this.
Thanks, Mike. It would be great if we could finally get this sorted out.
Maybe I'll run the GL-3 with GearMoly until we know for certain.
I just looked in the parts catalog. The 3/4 syncro for 91-96 are part # 83506253 which supercedes to 4897051AA which applies to all AX-15's. So I don't think the change was due to the syncros.
ChiXJeff
05-08-2003, 16:38
Originally posted by MJR
I just looked in the parts catalog. The 3/4 syncro for 91-96 are part # 83506253 which supercedes to 4897051AA which applies to all AX-15's. So I don't think the change was due to the syncros.
Mike, you're a good man. ;)
Mike in NJ
05-12-2003, 07:08
Geez, I thought we finally put this one to rest, now you've got me wondering again. :confused:
Anyway, I figure the safest thing to do while this is sorted out is to just spend a little extra and put in GL-3.
I have a question though: I just did change my AX-15 oil with GL-5. Since you can't quite drain ALL of the oil, are there any compatability issues between the two? I just want to drain what I can of the GL-5, and fill back up with GL-3.
Any thoughts?
Mike in NJ :patriot:
I don't there would be a compatibility problem...... It's ust that you will have a bit left over with something "extra" in it :) :)
Kejtar
Originally posted by Mike in NJ
I have a question though: I just did change my AX-15 oil with GL-5. Since you can't quite drain ALL of the oil, are there any compatability issues between the two? I just want to drain what I can of the GL-5, and fill back up with GL-3.
Any thoughts?
Mike in NJ :patriot:
Mike I don't think a little will make a difference unless its a fluid that isn't suppose to be in there in the first place. I can't determine capatibility without more information. I am still trying to find out why they changed the fluid spec in 97. I don't think they care since the AX trannies have been replaced by the NV ones.
The fact that the '91-'96 part #'s are listed differently may well be because the '97 and newer trannys used different suppliers or material in the syncros. Part numbers superscede all the time, especially older ones that get replaced with newer #'s that will physically fit the older applications, even though there may be a slight difference in them. Often this is done to reduce redundancy or to eliminate old stock . I'm a former Mopar dealer parts man and the price books we would get every quarter had a section in the back the size of a phone book with supersceded numbers in them. We would sometimes chase a number that would change a dozen times until it would finally show up as current, drove us nuts. That was pre-computer, now they go from the old original number to the current one instantly. The more I see on the AX-15 subject the more I believe the older ones should use GL-3. Now if you go buy NEW syncros with the current supersceded part #, you might want to use GL-5. Just trying to make sense of it all. :) TC
Judd W. VA
05-13-2003, 03:59
Why take a chance?? Why not just use good 'ole GL-3 to 5 lube available from AZ for $2.19/qt and not risk anything?? I'd like to use something more 'robust' in my '98 AX-15 also, but i am totally sure this will be fine.
Time to change the transmission oil. So is there any agreement on this? Is GL-3 really "safer" if it can't handle the same pressures of GL-5? How about synthetic? Would synthetic GL-5 require the same additives as conventional GL-5? I'm leaving on a ~3500 mile trip in August and I'd like to have this sorted out so I don't have to worry about it.
Time to change the transmission oil. So is there any agreement on this? Is GL-3 really "safer" if it can't handle the same pressures of GL-5? How about synthetic? Would synthetic GL-5 require the same additives as conventional GL-5? I'm leaving on a ~3500 mile trip in August and I'd like to have this sorted out so I don't have to worry about it.
For your AX-15 or front/rear axles? What year is yours? GL-5 is recommended for 84-96 and GL-3 for 97-up (yes there is a misprint in the manualfor 97).
I have a 95 with the 5-spd. I know the manual calls for GL-3 for '97 up and GL-5 for '96 down, but isn't that what this whole topic is about? Is there a difference between the 96- and 97+ transmissions, or did they just wise up and correct the manual in 97?
Hmmm...I suppose I'll just switch to the AZ GL-3/4/5 stuff until we get this figured out. Will switching from synthetic back to conventional make it leak?
It's all hearsay.. but I did hear of someone ruining the tranny with redline :(
Personally I think I will stick with the oem oil just to be one the safe side..
Kejtar
Sorry but when someone talks about OEM fluids and/or lubes it makes me chuckle. No auto/bike/truck company out there makes their own. They release a list of specs and take the lowest bidder who meets the specs and passes any tests the company may present. So by using OEM you just may be putting Redline, Mobil, Pennzoil, whatever in there but at 2 times the price. Also consider if the contracts for auto/trucks are like the bike world at all, then the maker of the OEM lube changes every 5-10 years. If it meets the specs and says it can safely be used then use it. If it fails then the lube maker takes a hit. And no one can say it will void the warranty either.
Sarge
I found this on JeepsUnlimited, from a poster named XJ Sean. I couldn't find it for myself on the Mobil 1 site. I've been using Mobil 1 for about 2.5 years.
__________________________________________________ ______________
this is from the mobil 1 site:
"Application
Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lubricant is suitable for all automotive applications where lubricants meeting API Service GL-5, are recommended. It can also be used in rear axles where an API Service GL-4 lubricant is recommended. It should not be used in any transmissions requiring an engine oil or automatic transmission fluid, or GL-4 performance level."
AX-15 trannies call for GL-3 spec lube (even if the manual says GL-5)
I found this on JeepsUnlimited, from a poster named XJ Sean. I couldn't find it for myself on the Mobil 1 site. I've been using Mobil 1 for about 2.5 years.
__________________________________________________ ______________
this is from the mobil 1 site:
"Application
Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lubricant is suitable for all automotive applications where lubricants meeting API Service GL-5, are recommended. It can also be used in rear axles where an API Service GL-4 lubricant is recommended. It should not be used in any transmissions requiring an engine oil or automatic transmission fluid, or GL-4 performance level."
AX-15 trannies call for GL-3 spec lube (even if the manual says GL-5)
Originally AX-15's used GL-5 and in 97 they went to GL-3 which they do recommend for the older models now even though GL-5 was. There was a change in the AX-15 syncros in 97 possibly due to complaints of shifting when cold in earlier models. GL-5 is normally used for heavy duty applications like axles where you need better anti-sheer properties. Sounds like that person quoted needs to do more research on the subject.
Hmmm...I suppose I'll just switch to the AZ GL-3/4/5 stuff until we get this figured out. Will switching from synthetic back to conventional make it leak?
You should have no issues switching to a synthetic as long as it meets the specs the manufacturer recommends.
I have a 95 with the 5-spd. I know the manual calls for GL-3 for '97 up and GL-5 for '96 down, but isn't that what this whole topic is about? Is there a difference between the 96- and 97+ transmissions, or did they just wise up and correct the manual in 97?
The syncro part numbers changed in that year. There were some comlaints of hard shifting when cold which may have caused them to change either design or material along with going to GL-3.
Mike --
So we can standardize on GL-3 for all years of the AX-15? Good, that's easy enough for my tired brain to remember (I think).
What about the BA10/5? Still GL-5 for that, or should we also use GL-3 in that one? Could I run that Pennzoil Synchromesh lube (which has NO GL- rating) and Mr. Moly molybdenum (non-sulphide) additive for the extreme pressure additive?
I'll throw my .02 in here. When this question first came up a long time ago I went to the mobil site and asked the question, aparently alot of others did too.
They more or less waffled and said use what the manufactures recommend. That said I have been running mobil-1 90W gear oil in my AX-15 for the last 180,000 mi or so. Switched about the same time I did the TC and both diffs. The mobil-1 eliminated that cold blooded second gear shift on cold mornings.
The mobil-1 atf in the TC eliminated the grinding going into 4lo and back out again. I'm happy with it...
The 'multi GL' rated lubes can't be, GL-3 = no sulphur GL4/5 = sulphur so unless it's some kind of smart bottle that identifies the tranny as you are pouring it in and withholds the sulphur if it sees and AX5 or AX15 theres no way it can meet all the specs.
As for going back to the dealer supplied AX15 lube, no thanks, I like the way mine shifts on cold mornings and don't want to go back to fighting the stick again.
I did shoot an email to redline and the respons I got was MT-90 is OK in the AX5/15 tranny. If I happen to see some around I may pickup 3 quarts and put it on the rack for when I go thru the 3/4 of a case of Mobil 90# I have left over...
Bounty Hunter
07-16-2004, 00:13
It is the zinc additive in GL-4 and 5 that is the material distructive to the brass synchros used in a number of Jap transmissions.
It's been my understanding up to this date that it's the high sulfer content of GL5 that is highly corrosive to the soft brass synchros of the AX5/15 trannies. Google 'sulfer corrosive synchronizers' and you'll find a ton of info on this out on the web.
There is no year cutoff to my knowledge where the synchros were changed in these trannies. I wouldn't use GL5 in any of them. I've used Mobil1 in the past and it has prooved to eat synchros.
I now use only Redline MT90, and MTL is acceptable depending on the climate. Get mine at www.summitracing.com and it's a lot cheaper than the stealership juice. Redline is rated a GL4 yet it states it's specially formulated to be easy on the soft brass synchros. I've yet to have a problem with it, not even the glitter in the fluid that GL5 gives from eating the synchros.
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