Draining Freon

got a question, why is it that you have to get your system drained by a shop. Is there something terrible and deadly and tragic that could happen if you just open it up yourself and let it drain, like is it just an environmental safety thing or is there another reason for this.

thanx,

eric

it's very very bad for atmoshere......

Ever heard of the much touted hole in the Ozone layer (the very reason that R12 and R14 are so regulated) ?

Also, in the presensance of flame or strong oxidant Freon R12 turns into some nasty inhalation hazards...

Freon R12 is antagonistic to Ozone (which protects us from overexposure to solar ultraviolet,) and - unless I'm heavily mistaken, which is possible - also tends to decompose into a derivative of Phosgene when burned. Phosgene, in case you never heard of it, is a WWII-era chemical weapon. I don't remember the effects of it offhand, but it should be easy enough to find out.

5-90

Eric,

I paid $40 a pound for R-12. If you are planning on doing work on your system go to a shop that can capture it and then install it back in your system. R-12 will come out in a gas form at atmospheric pressure so no way to "catch it" in a pan.

Beside releasing R-12 in the the atmosphere is a big no no. I heard a professional AC guy getting a $50,000 fine for doing it.

If you do the service on your AC system you will need a vacuum pulled on the system before you introduce the new R-12. By capturing your R-12 you can save yourself several $20 bills.

Martin

if the system is already dead or real low why not convert it to R-134 instead? cheaper and you can buy retrofit kits at just about any store... and its so much cheaper... it can save headaches later on.

R134 vs R12

well R12 is nasty to the atmosphere but so is R134 just not as bad. On the plus side know ones made a chemical weapon of it yet! One good thing that R12 has over R134 is that it cools 3x times better! If you convert don't expect your A/C system to work as well. The only way to truly make it work well is to change to a R134 compressor (pumps faster/more volume) and change A/C condensors (holds more/more cooling area). Just the 411 from somebody who works with this stuff all day long!:bunny:

The whole thing about R12 putting a hole is the ozone layer is really just another unproven theory; regardless, it is illegal to vent it into the atmosphere and it's valuable anyway. You can recover it yourself if you're so inclined. If you go to item 14 in the link below, it tells you how to extract it in the privacy and comfort of your own garage. Basically, pull a vacuum on a propane bottle, hook it up to your A/C, and chill the bottle with dry ice. You can also purchase R12 yourself if your certified. Certification is simple, inexpensive, and you can do it on the web with a credit card. Google for IMACA if you're interested in certification. Unless you want a 30 pound cylinder, you're better off buying R12 on ebay. If you convert to R134 you'll loose efficiency and the higher pressure can be hard on your A/C system.

http://www.vettenet.org/acfaq.txt

PaulJ said:

The whole thing about R12 putting a hole is the ozone layer is really just another unproven theory;

Click to expand...

Not true. It is accepted as proven by 98% or more of reputable scientists in every country of the world. The only people who dispute this are those who work for our government, and it's only a small percentage of those.

R12--how bad is it really?

Eagle, I hate to take exception to your statements, as you are fairly wise on Jeeps, but.....

I remember reading an article in "Machine Design" magazine, a trade mag. for mech. engrs., about 5 years ago, on the topic of ozone depletion due to chlorinated flourocarbons (CFC's, aka FREON).

Among the things they noted:

1. the ozone layer has only been measured for thickness/density since about 1947. From 1947 until 1969, it was INCREASING. From 1969 until about 1990, it was diminishing, but not to a level any lower than that measured in 1947. The point of this is that we don't have enough data for a long enough time to say with absolute certainty that the ozone layer is lessened solely because of CFC's.

2. CFC's are heavier than air, so they tend to settle, not rise to where the ozone is located. It is assumed that "atmospheric stirring" is what causes the CFC's to get up by the ozone, but no one has built a model that is VERIFIED to show such stirring occurs. It was all conjecture and theory as of the time of the article, and may still be, for all I know.

3. When the "CFC destroys ozone" theory was put forth in the mid-1980's, one key fact was NOT known--that SEAWATER absorbs a lot of CFC's. Now as to whether it absorbs and holds enough to neutralize the possible effects of atmospheric stirring, has yet to be analyzed.

My point here is that what is taken for gospel is not so clearly absolutely incontrovertable fact. I suspect that part of the reason that we see so little about the flaws in the assumptions made when R12 was restricted was due to the fact that a number of high ranking officials in various agencies and governments would loose face by admitting to making judgements based on limited facts.

ummmm that might be true... but the thing is that gas... goes up not down so even if ocean (seawater) absorbs some, some still goes up... in any case, it's a bad thing to release it for more then one reason.....

Even given that the R12 is heavier than air, if it is absorbed into water (I didn't know it was water-soluble) it will eventually enter the atmosphere as part of the water cycle.

Kejtar - when you think heavier than air gas, think gasoline vapours (or natural gas.) Both are heavier than air, and will settle toward the bottom of any container they are in and will fill a room from the bottom up. Halon is much the same, which is what makes it an effective firefighting agent.

It would be interesting to research this topic further, but I have University applications to work on right now...

5-90

When I said "absorbed into seawater", I did not mean to imply it's soluble in water. I think the intent here is that much of the free CFC enters seawater and becomes trapped in the water. Now as to what happens in the water cycle (evaporation/rain) to that trapped CFC was not stated in the article, but you raise an interesting point.

CFC's are HEAVIER THAN AIR. In a situation without wind or air currents, they settle to the lowest place they can find.

This is why the used to be used for fire suppression purposes, particularly in computer rooms. (i.e. Halon fire suppression systems.) They smother the fire by blocking oxygen from getting to the source of combustion.

Computer rooms equipped with Halon systems also had a warning system built into them. Once the Halon began to enter the room, via overhead "sprinklers" that discharged the gas, an audio alarm went off, alerting room occupants to LEAVE NOW, or risk dying of SUFFOCATION.

That's how effective CFC's are at settling to the lowest points of an area, and why the whole idea of lots of CFC's being in the upper atmosphere and wreaking havoc on the ozone is hard to comprehend.

Eagle said:

Not true. It is accepted as proven by 98% or more of reputable scientists in every country of the world. The only people who dispute this are those who work for our government, and it's only a small percentage of those.

Click to expand...

Sorry Eagle, but it is a theory. Scientific proof of a theory is not dependant upon the number of people who believe something and reputable scientists understand that. Although it may be true, cause and effect cannot be demonstrated. Ozone predictions are an atmospheric prediction much somewhat like atmospheric predicitons that your local weatherman might make. I think most can relate to the inaccuracies of those very short term predictions. Here's an interesting excerpt from Fox News on this topic:

"Despite more than 10 years of media and activist hype and hysteria about global warming, there remains no credible scientific evidence that humans are altering global climate in any measurable way.

Historical temperature data are not sufficiently reliable to discern slight changes in global temperature trends. Mathematical models used to predict climate change rely on unvalidated assumptions and poor-quality data. They aren't better than crystal balls.

Climate varies naturally; just consider the now-frozen Greenland farmed by Vikings 1,000 years ago.

If we could choose between a warmer or cooler global climate, we'd choose warmer because it's more conducive to life; consider those who starved in famines during Europe's Little Ice Age, circa 1450-1850."

Hi Eric,

It's to your credit that you would ask about this. I know some guys who will just release the crap into the atmosphere and never give it another thought.

My view on the scientific evidence of CFCs harming the ozone layer is that freon is indeed highly destructive to the environment. But putting this debate aside, AC shops will give you credit for the freon they evacuate from your system when you return to have them recharge it. Also, as one of the other posters said, freon can be deadly to breathe.

Why run the risk of making "pathology report" and "vinblastin" part of your everyday vocabulary when you can effortlessly have your system evacuated by an AC shop.

Just my 2 cents
...but easily worth several thousand

Erik