Let's talk about the advantages to manuals....

Ok, I know I'm probably just gonna end up with another love fest in here, but hopefully some decent tech will be contributed before the thread ends up in the den

Now, I'm dreaming(in other words it probably won't happen, but I like to think about things, even when I can't do them) of a manual tranny in my Jeep. My main motivation behind this is for when I'm on the road. I drive a LOT on the road and manuals are just more fun to drive. Also, with the kind of wheeling we have here wheelspeed is a good thing and so is being able to start out in 2nd gear.

My concerns are based on two things.

1) Ease of swap

2) Gearing

I realize that #1 depends on the tranny you choose and can range from moderately difficult to PITA accordingly.

Now about the gearing. I put my 32 ATs back on for the winter and with 4.56s I'm quite happy with them around town. I drove 7 hours on the highway yesterday and cruising at 75mph I was at 2750 rpms. I don't however think that smaller tires or deeper gears would be feasible due to engine RPMs. The reason I'm concerned with this is I'm planning on 35s and 5.13s, but I NEED to be able to cruise at 75 reliably on a regular basis. With that said, will the manual tranny help or hurt in this category. Can they be had with taller final gears than the AW-4's OD??

What do you guys think?? Also, how would I go about installing a clutch pedal?? Are the provisions for it there on the firewall?? Aaron(MrShoeBoy) any help here? Thanks

Ary

Ary'01XJ said:

I drove 7 hours on the highway yesterday and cruising at 75mph I was at 2750 rpms. I don't however think that smaller tires or deeper gears would be feasible due to engine RPMs. The reason I'm concerned with this is I'm planning on 35s and 5.13s, but I NEED to be able to cruise at 75 reliably on a regular basis.

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I don't really know about installing the manual as to what's involved and how complicated that'd be.. but are you considering 2750 rpm's a bad thing?? I regularly drive on the freeway (about 120+ miles a day.... and about 60 are with no traffic) and with my stick and 4.11's and 31's I get my rmp's to about 3000 at about 80 and the motor is purring happily right along

Now in theory the install shouldn't be that bad..... you might want to look into getting the NV3500 (ir is it 4500?) from a newer cherokee for the install and you should be fine Also I think that there must be the mounting holes/plates what have you for the clutch as I don't see them making two different sets of parts....

Remi, let me clarify, I'm very happy with where my RPMs sit right now, but I would NOT be comfortable running above 3250 for 7 hours straight. Maybe it is unwarranted, but I just don't feel that there is a significant power gain and the RPMs can't be the greatest thing for moving parts....

Your best bet is to find someone with a 5-speed who wants an auto and just swap parts. That would be the quickest, cheapest, and best way to insure you got everything at once. Keep in mind you need much more than the tranny. There's the shifter, pedals, flexplate, clutch, slave cylinder, tranny mount and crossmember?, and the driveshaft might be a different lenght. If you had someone to swap parts with it would sace alot of headaches.

I myself loved having a 5-speed in my old XJ. Mine was a blast to drive with the 4.56s and 32s. I wished for lower gearing in the t-case just about everytime I was wheeling it (especially with 34s)but other than that I loved it. It takes a certain amount of skill to wheel with a manual. You're right about being able to start out in 2nd, it really comes in handy sometimes. I'm going to run an auto in the new trial rig so I guess I'll finally get to see if I really wanted an auto or not.

I suspect that it's more personal preference than anything else.

Me, I definitely prefer a stick. But then again, I'm apparently a control freak. In particular, I like being able to creep without having the trans slip a shift in on me, and most importantly, compression braking is a good deal more effective with a stick.

As far as the swap goes, Carpenter probably has the best idea. It's not a completely trivial swap, you'll have to pull some wiring for the TCU.

If you're going to do this, I would suggest looking for a bellhousing with an external slave, rather than that gawdawful internal combination throwout bearing/slave cylinder. I think the last year for the internal was 1993, my 1994 has the external.

off topic....

but you go to tech right? and you live in va beach right? so the 7 hour trip was from there to there? and it took you 7 hrs? i drove from roanoke to the eastern shore of va in just over 6.

FitchVA said:

off topic....

but you go to tech right? and you live in va beach right? so the 7 hour trip was from there to there? and it took you 7 hrs? i drove from roanoke to the eastern shore of va in just over 6.

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You have to factor in the 2.5 hours I sat in traffic

Every Jeep vehicle I've ever owned and wheeled has had a manual tranny,until my current XJ. I'll never go back to a manual again. FWIW,the AW-4 is a stronger tranny than an AX-15 will ever be. Straight from the factory the manual had a 1500 pound disadvantage in towing capacity(5,000 lb. for the auto vs. 3,500 lb. for the manual). If you're gonna go with a manual,don't backstep in quality,get something at least as strong as the AW-4. YMMV

hey Ary, gojeep has a switch installed that allows him to start in second gear for the auto.

NV4500!!!


deep first, 6 point something

deep OD, .70 i think (newer AW4 is .75)

strong.



CRASH has one, PM him or do a search over on PBB, it won't be as cheap or as easy as an AX15 but it will be way better!

I personally love driving stick. Of course there are time when I'm wheeling and watch how easy it goes for guys with the auto's but it's just more fun to me. I like using all 4 of my limbs to drive, makes me feel in control, even though most of the time I'm pressing in the clutch when I don't want to, stalling, falling backwards, going too fast and crap like that, but I'm still in controll... .

I'm wanting to make a crawler box this coming summer, as my highway gearing is great with 4.56 and 33's, and the ax-15, but I need a bit lower for wheeling, even with a 4:1 low range. I just feel I'm too fast for some of the stuff I do. Plus I'm going to 35's soon as well. But with you...and wheel speed, you'll be fine.

BTW, I drove a wrangler with the nv3550....my lord, it's a dream. swap that baby in before any other moderate duty manual. HTH a bit. Later _nicko_

Georgia Mike said:

FWIW,the AW-4 is a stronger tranny than an AX-15 will ever be. Straight from the factory the manual had a 1500 pound disadvantage in towing capacity(5,000 lb. for the auto vs. 3,500 lb. for the manual). If you're gonna go with a manual,don't backstep in quality,get something at least as strong as the AW-4. YMMV

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Sorry but I have to disagree... the AX15 is not the limiting factor in the towing capacity for a manual...... I don';t know about strengths, but I towed about 4500lbs worth of bricks (that's 4500lbs of bricks + trailer) with my ax15 not too long ago and nothing broke I will have to say that driving a stick on the trail has it's plusses and minuses... but IMHO the pluses outweight the minuses Now granted I have always driven stick vehicles, I learned how to drive a stick when I was about 13 and I don't want a different vehicle then a stick . The autos just suck all the fun away.... might as well have a robot drive for me and choose my lines and so on (ok.... so I'm exagerating LOL)

Ok this is kinda on topic. I have the puegot 5-speed in my '89 and when the clutch goes out sometimes in the next year, I want to swap in something a lot stronger. I have doubts about how long it will hold up to a blown stroker and tall gears and tires. What would be the best thing to swap in? I can make an adapter plate pretty easily, so what do you think maybe something from a v-8 pickup? I heard a while ago that a 289 would bolt up to the aw-4 so would a tranny from a ford be a direct bolt on?

Kejtar said:

The autos just suck all the fun away....

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So, I guess actually making it over the obstacles isn't fun?

Drewlee77 said:

So, I guess actually making it over the obstacles isn't fun?

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Well.. after seeing Brad make it up the widowmaker with a stick.... and all the other ones taking a strap (me included) I don't think that line will work As I said each type has it's ups and downs and then a lot comes down to a driver. Not all people will do great with a stick and not all people will do great with an auto....

And for closing I will quote someone elses sig line "Slushboxes are for wimps"

Yeah yeah yeah... I was just kidding. But I could list more times I have seen auto's make it up obstacles when sticks couldn't do it. You won't get me so easily!:moon:

No really, if yall wanna drive sticks that's fine by me. Personally, I'd rather eat glass - but I'm not gonna seriously say it's a "bad" thing to drive a stick. On the other hand, where pure "capability" is concerned - consider that virtually ALL compitition vehicles run auto's. Even in the Top Truck Challenge you'll be hard pressed to find a stick. Even the military went to auto's in HMMWV's (though, there were alot of good reasons for that even beyond those reasons that could apply to Jeeps...e.g. wounded soldier can't drive stick with one hand, etc.). So I think that swapping a stick in for an auto will, OVERALL, decrease capability - even if it does help in certain situations and even if it does increase the fun-factor for you (which I suppose is the most important thing!).

In other words, I hate to break it to you, but your wrong. You see, all my opinions are right. If they weren't - I'd change them!


I will concede this though: it takes more skill to properly drive a stick off-road.

Georgia Mike said:

Straight from the factory the manual had a 1500 pound disadvantage in towing capacity(5,000 lb. for the auto vs. 3,500 lb. for the manual). If you're gonna go with a manual,don't backstep in quality,get something at least as strong as the AW-4. YMMV

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The only reason there is a 1500 diffrence in towing capacity between the AW-4 and the AX-15 is that DC doesn't think that Americans are proficient enough with the clutch to handle towing heavy loads. The quality of the AX-15 is not a factor.

I wheel for the challenge. Automatics take the challenge away.

Like Jeff said, personal preference. I've always ran manuals, seems simple to me. I like having a more direct control of wheelspeed, plus the fun factor. I wheeled with a number of rigs on a two week 'ride this year and several of the automatics brakes were cooking halfway into day. Having to throw them in and out of gear seemed a PIA to me also.
Autos aren't all bad, my sister drives 'em, my Mom drove 'em, my Grandma drove 'em..... TC

Georgia Mike said:

Every Jeep vehicle I've ever owned and wheeled has had a manual tranny,until my current XJ. I'll never go back to a manual again. FWIW,the AW-4 is a stronger tranny than an AX-15 will ever be. Straight from the factory the manual had a 1500 pound disadvantage in towing capacity(5,000 lb. for the auto vs. 3,500 lb. for the manual). If you're gonna go with a manual,don't backstep in quality,get something at least as strong as the AW-4. YMMV

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Well, I towed over 6000 lbs for over 1100 miles with my weak 5sp. I think comparing autos and a 5sp can't be done when it comes to strength. The reason is the driver has control of the clutch. You can be very easy on the tranny in a 5sp if you know how to drive. On the other hand you can't if you have an auto. I always suggest for the people that are not good at driving they should stick with an auto. If you are a rock crawler an auto is the only choice, but on hills and in mud it can be argued all day, so it is personal preference.

Enjoy,
Curt

The only manual I ever liked off road was a T-18 with a granny first... which unfortunately caused me to grenade an otherwise functional dana 20. Trying to juggle the tasks of keeping the struggling carbuerated motor running, while maintaining progress up a steep hill was nearly impossible. The T-case detonated on one of those occasions when I had to rev the motor up to keep it alive on a hill, but I didn't get it out of gear quite fast enough and when the clutch dropped at 4,000 rpm with a 40:1 final drive, bad things happened. I really can't imagine trying to drive a standard manual off road around here, it'd be a nightmare.

Gear reduction through the torque converter is reason enough to go with the auto. I don't like the fact that you lose the bump starting ability, but that's just one of the trade offs. The guys who overheat their brakes downhill probably aren't making full use of their compression braking. Sure a manual will definitely have better compression braking than an auto, but it still depends on gearing. An old J-3000 of mine with a manual didn't have better compression braking than my XJ with the AW-4. But, as everyone's said, it's just a matter of preference.