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Running rich, Need OBD-ii live data advice

nrwphoto

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Appleton, WI
98' XJ 4.0 AW4 with 155k on it. An on going issue for the last couple of years. Running rich to the nose yet occasionally throws a running lean code on bank 1. Now it runs rich to the point of spitting droplets of gas out the tail pipe and stalling at stops after it has warmed up. Goes down the freeway fine however.

I replaced the upstream O2 sensor a couple of weeks ago, with no noticeable difference. Looking for ideas on a fix. I have had a couple people guess a bad computer....

With Innova scan tool I get this info

Cold (initial start up)
upstream read .4 - .75
downstream reads .76

Engine at 192
upstream reads 0.00 - .88 (jumping quickly with nothing in between)
downstream reads 1.0 solid (way rich)

STFT remains -4.7 to 0 hot or cold
LTFT remains 6.0 hot or cold

A couple other odd things I noticed. Even when warmed up it remains in CL (closed loop). Shouldn't this have changed to open loop?

Also the TPS reads 15% even at idle. That doesn't make much since, but I have gotten that reading for a couple of years. Is this correct or another source of trouble?
 
Your O2's are reading pretty normal. They should vary above and below .450 mv upstream and should be pretty steady on the downstream. A negative fuel trim number means the vehicle is trying to take away fuel and a positive number means it is trying to add fuel.
 
What are the gas mpg's ?

Nearly all 1999 and earlier XJ's have a cracked exhaust manifold, causing fresh air to enter the exhaust system, creating a false lean reading, causing the ECU richen the mixture.

What is the TPS voltage at idle ?
 
Your O2's are reading pretty normal. They should vary above and below .450 mv upstream and should be pretty steady on the downstream.....

I am familiar with that. However it's once it's warmed up that concerns me. Reading 0.0 means the computer isn't seeing a signal from the O2 sensor. That's why I replaced it a couple of weeks ago. It would not move off of 0.0. The new sensor gives readings at cold but then seemingly jumps on and off once warm.

What are the gas mpg's ?

Nearly all 1999 and earlier XJ's have a cracked exhaust manifold, causing fresh air to enter the exhaust system, creating a false lean reading, causing the ECU richen the mixture.

What is the TPS voltage at idle ?

I am familiar with the header problem. The factory header cracked which I replaced with a Banks header.... which in turn cracked a year later and I now have the Mopar header on it. No cracks after about 3 years.

I don't know what the voltage is, however the Innova scan tool shows 15% at idle, foot off the gas, warm or cold.

I am also still curious about the Closed/Open loop. I thought they start in Closed Loop going of long term stored data. Then once the engine is at temp they switch to Open Loop to adjust the engine for real time info. Am I right or wrong with this. If I am correct then why would my rig stay in Closed Loop?
 
Your scan tool is not fast enough to catch all that the O2 sensor is doing as far as voltage goes. The refresh rate just isn't quick enough so voltage is not necessarily accurate. It is switching which is a good sign but as far as determining the voltage as good or bad...
 
Then once the engine is at temp they switch to Open Loop to adjust the engine for real time info. Am I right or wrong with this. If I am correct then why would my rig stay in Closed Loop?

you've got that backwards.
Open loop is running off stored programming. Closed loop is running on the 02 sensor. Closed loop=running on a feedback loop from all the sensors.

I would suspect a failing injector as well. one that's pouring gas into a cylinder will upset the O2 readins, and it will pull fuel from all cylinders. Giving you a lean condition on 5 and a slobbery rich condition on one.

SOmethig to check. Pull your plugs and have a look at the conditions in each hole.
 
Test the TPS voltage.


Open Loop when cold.

In closed loop operation the ECU uses one or more oxygen sensors as a feedback loop in order to adjust the fuel mixture. This gives the name ‘closed loop’ from the closed feedback loop. The ECU won’t run in a closed feedback loop all the time, so ‘open loop’ is used to describe the operation of the ECU when the mixture is not being adjusted in this way (usually when the engine is cold or when running under high load).

In closed loop operation the ECU uses the oxygen sensor to tell if the fuel mixture is rich or lean. However, due to the characteristics of the oxygen sensor it can’t tell exactly how rich or lean, it only knows that the mixture is richer or leaner than optimum. The ECU will enrich the mixture if the oxygen sensor shows that the mixture is lean, and lean the mixture if it looks rich. The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the stoichiometric point.


TPS TEST

You should have 5 volts going into the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). It is best to use an analog meter (not digital) to see if the transition from idle to WOT is smooth with no dead spots. With your meter set for volts, put the black probe on a good ground like your negative battery terminal. With the key to the normal ON/RUN postion, engine not running, test with the red probe of your meter (install a paper clip into the back of the plug of the TPS) to see which wire has the 5 volts. At idle, TPS output voltage should be greater than .26 volts but less than .95 volts. Move the throttle and look for smooth meter response up to the 4.49 at WOT. The other wire will be the ground and should show no voltage.

Perform the test procedure again and wiggle and/or tap on the TPS while you watch the meter. If you notice any flat spots or abrupt changes in the meter readings, replace the TPS.


The TPS is sensitive to heat, moisture, and vibration, leading to the failure of some units. The sensor is a sealed unit and cannot be repaired only replaced. A TPS may fail gradually leading to a number of symptoms which can include one or more of the following:

-Poor idle control: The TPS is used by the ECU to determine if the throttle is closed and the car should be using the Idle Air Control Valve exclusively for idle control. A fault TPS sensor can confuse the ECU causing the idle to be erratic or "hunting".

- High Idle Speed: The TPS may report faulty values causing the engine idle speed to be increased above normal. This is normally found in conjunction with a slow engine return to idle speed symptom.

-Slow engine return to idle: A failing TPS can report the minimum throttle position values incorrectly which can stop the engine entering idle mode when the throttle is closed. Normally when the throttle is closed the engine fuel injectors will be deactivated until a defined engine RPM speed is reached and the engine brought smoothly to idle speed. When failing a TPS will not report the throttle closed and fueling will continue causing the engine to return to idle very slowly.

-Engine Hesitation on Throttle Application: The TPS is also used by the ECU to determine if the driver has applied the throttle quicker than the Manifold Air Pressure sensor can read. The fueling is adjusted accordingly to cope with the sudden increase in air volume, however a faulty sensor can cause the ECU to ignore this data and the engine will "hesitate" when applying the throttle. In extreme cases with the engine at idle, a sudden application of full throttle can stall the engine.

- Engine Misfire: A faulty TPS can report values outside the acceptable range causing the ECU to incorrectly fuel the engine. This is noticeable as a slight misfire and can trigger the misfire detection software and/or Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) light on the dashboard. Extreme cases can cause excessive misfires resulting in one or more cylinders being shut down to prevent engine and catalytic converter damage.
 
Thanks to all for the info. As far as CL/OL I was remembering that backwards so I will not over think that one anymore.

Injectors have crossed my mind and I have considered upgrading them in the past to a more efficient injector. But I have had trouble trusting the info for a stock motor. See lots of talk about what injectors for stroker kits. If memory serves I need the injectors from the Dodge Neon would work best... blue is it?

Tim_MN thanks for the in-depth on the TPS. I will have to check the actual voltage. I did check the TPS again with ignition on, engine off and it still showed 14.9%.

For what it's worth I do have the bored over throttle body. It was from a forum member where he bored it straight through with the factory blade. Can't remember the name of who was doing them.

Also just realized I never answered your MPG Q. I have been getting 15mpg for some time never to go over 17mpg in any condition and occasionally I will get 9-10mpg. This is with 2.5" OME suspension, 4.10 and Cooper AT3 30x9.5 tires. When I had 235/75R15 street biased tires I regualarly got 17-18 city and 21-22 why. However I changed a lot of things all at once a couple of years ago. Some out of need and others out of want. So I was never able to point at 1 cause for the mpg drop.
 
Test the TPS voltage.

TPS TEST

You should have 5 volts going into the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS).... .26 volts but less than .95 volts.... 4.49 at WOT.

Alright I just went out and tested. Ign. on Engine off. I found the 5v wire giving a full 5. Center wire gave me the variable reading. Idle was 1.1-1.2v, just a needle past 1v. WOT gave me 4v on the money. I cycled the throttle a few times and it did give a clean sweep on the needle no dead or hanging spots.

I am guessing this means my TPS is functioning but not giving accurate info...?
 
What brand of replacement O2 sensor ? It is well known that Bosch O2 sensors and the Jeep 4.0L do not play well together.

I would suggest a new genuine Jeep TPS.
 
I bought it at Autozone, just their Duralast house brand. Who ever made the TPS for them 2 years ago. I called them to see if it was under warranty. They said that it isn't and the part was replaced by a different one with a lifetime warranty. Current part is Wells Vehicle Electronics, don't know what mine is.
 
Cheap crappy Chinese "Lifetime Warranty" parts are often out of specification, or even failed, right out of the box. Many times they have a short service life before they fail. Always buy top quality replacement parts and genuine Jeep sensors.

Numerous threads detail long and frustrating searches for a "problem" that ended up being cured with genuine Jeep repair parts.

Cheap parts are cheap for a reason.
 
Alright, new info. I bought a new TPS today and installed it. While I was at it I checked the voltage readings of the new TPS and what my scan tool said. And everything was the same. No difference with the new Mopar TPS. I also thought I might have a 180 thermostat so I went to change it back to the factory 195. When I popped open the housing I found that I did have a 195 in it already. So running temp has nothing to do with it.

After it warmed up and started running rich and poorly I decided to unplug 1 injector at a time to kill each cylinder and see if I could tell if there was a particular cyl giving me grief. Each time I unplugged an injector the engine would stumble a bit, then the computer would blip the throttle and it would smooth out and idle surprisingly well. I would plug the injector back in and move to the next cyl. etc. What I found out was that by unplugging any injector, letting the computer do it's thing and then plugging it back in my engine would then idle smooth and lean out. The Innova showed my O2 changing from the .8 to as high as 1.0 before, down to .02-.08 after. My STFT and LTFT would go from the low 30's each, to 0.0 and instead of showing CL or OL it just showed NA.

I don't quite understand what was going on. All I know is that the engine would run perfect for as long as I let it run after pulling and then reconnecting any injector. If i turned off the motor and started it back up, it would again go back to running rich and stumbling.

Can anyone explain why this might be?
 
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