Loose starter damage

OK kind of had a bad day yesterday went to leave work and jeep wont start . just a whirring noise..

So when i went under to look the thing wasn't even connected and i have damage from when it was partway connected .

I just recently had a new short block with an odessa head installed by a shop (not cheap). so i am very worried i have caused a serious issue.

About a week ago my starter failed and i replaced it i suppose i did not tighten the bolts enough on the starter .
anyway heres the damage tell me what you think.

This cover plate looks pretty easy to replace but its shattered


Heres what worries me this plate that broke looks to be reinforcement for the starter and looks like it goes up in between the motor and trans bell housing where it would be a big deal to replace



As you can see the one side broke off with the bolt hole intact and the peice fits right back in place to hold the starter in proper position

Here you can see it set back in place



I have it set back in place and the new starter installed and it seems to be working just fine but am i causing undue stress on anything by leaving it that way ?

I would flapwheel down that bead in the last pic, otherwise it loks fine

I see what your saying in the pic it looks like I welded it back together and a bead is sticking out a bit..

I just set it in place (loosely) and bolted the starter over it to hold it. I didn't think of welding it I could get my buddy to tack it in there possibly..

I'm having a hard time determining what I am seeing. Did the bell housing get messed up or only the dust shield?

IIRC, the lower portion of the dust shield that is broken simply unbolts from the bellhousing, so you can pull the lower section off and repair or replace it. I'm not near my Jeep and I don't recall if the starter side is the piece that is removable without unbolting the motor.

Edit: I was wrong. Starter section is sandwiched between the BH and block. I'd pull the starter off, tack weld the plate back together, flap wheel the weld smooth and bolt the starter back on.

X2..

Yessir just the shield not the bell housing

Thanks for the advice guys i think i will get it over to my buddies and have him tack it together.

since the one bolt hole was intact i didnt know if it was necessary but better safe than sorry.

GREAT! now its making a grinding noise at start up as soon as it starts .

It is the same noise that is made if you were to turn the key with the motor already started.

Maybe they gave me a bad starter (i hope) or is this indicating some other damage?

\ :banghead:

I would make sure that the dust plate was nice and flat. Make sure that the bolt holes are good, and check the teeth on the flexplate.

I would have replaced that piece of the dust shield. If you don't want to pull the engine I would have cut out a section of a new/good used plate, removed the same from the bad one and either riveted it to the remaining portion or tack weld it. The starter will hold it in mostly though.

Unless you want more problems, I would bite the bullet and replace that plate. I would think you could pull that plate out with out pulling the engine or transmission, just separate the two enough to get the plate out?

Not an easy task, but I had that problem with my diesel, and it just got worse because it was not fixed properly by others, before I got involved. That plate must be flat and true under the starter, or it will cause starter problems, cocks the starter at a bad angle, and leads to problems like you are having. Ask me how I know!!!!

Only other option I see is overlap and rivet as suggested, but then how do you get and keep it flat with just 2 bolts. It really needs to be one good, smooth, flat solid piece.

An experienced sheet metal shop might be able to fix it, starting with a new one, to cut out the lower part, and with a bend and overlap attach it to the remains of the old one with a pair of bolts and welded nuts on the back of the new plate, if there is clearance for it

It can be pulled w/o pulling the transmission or engine. You need to pull the transmission off the dowels then rotate the plate out from behind the crank and flex plate while bending it over the dowels. You may need to unbolt the torque converter from the flex plate.

As for just cutting a section out and riveting it in I don't see any issue with that. Don't overlap them, but butt them up as best as possible then rivet a tin piece to tie them together. . The plate needs to be there so it doesn't XXXX in the transmission.

Opps, I forgot the dowels. I like the idea you suggested "Don't overlap them, but butt them up as best as possible then rivet a tin piece to tie them together". I just worry that it will not be stiff enough to keep the starter from torquing sideways, since it is mounted with just 2 bolts, and not three.

If he uses 3-4 rivets per side it might work. I would use a stiff steel plate, not tin.

Can one even get tin easily these days?

That's just thin aluminum sheet. To be perfectly honest I would probably run it the way you have it, but I am clearly in the minority there... pop rivet a new piece in place. Just make sure you don't get any of the rivets under where they will be sandwiched by the starter motor. You can get those dust shields basically free, at least around here, I think I have 2 or 3 of them sitting around at this point. Just get another one, cut out the appropriate section with some overlap, drill some holes through it for the pop rivets, then bolt in place with shorter bolts without the starter, drill matching holes, pop rivet it in place, and bolt the starter back in.

Ecomike said:

Opps, I forgot the dowels. I like the idea you suggested "Don't overlap them, but butt them up as best as possible then rivet a tin piece to tie them together". I just worry that it will not be stiff enough to keep the starter from torquing sideways, since it is mounted with just 2 bolts, and not three.

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That plate provides no real support of the starter other than spacing. Its only about .080" aluminum. It doesn't prevent the starter from torquing sideways. The clamping force of the bolts does that.

Talyn said:

That plate provides no real support of the starter other than spacing. Its only about .080" aluminum. It doesn't prevent the starter from torquing sideways. The clamping force of the bolts does that.

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Tell that to the starter and the flex plate, not me. I have been there, done that, and had hell with the starter gear hanging on the flex plate, and not disengaging after the engine started, and staying engaged, also had grinding teeth, not engaging because I short cut the same sort of problem he is having in the same place. I had to learn the lesson the hard, HARD way. That plate is far more important to starter alignment, and to minimize torquing under starter load than you would ever think.

I tried the short cuts for months (8-12 months of screwing with it), and finally had to fix it right. I was convinced the plate was not the problem....

The support comes from the whole plate structure and sandwiching process, and the hole location and diameter and flush sides of the plate hole are also critical. It is not just a dust cover.

It is not there for support, it is there to control angular alignment of the starter gear to the flex plate, near as I could tell after not believing it was any more than a spacer and dust cover, and learning the hard way it is more than that.

Okay so where i am at with it now is my buddy said he couldn't weld it because as you guys said its aluminum .

I went to the junk yard and got the piece and replaced the easy one that is just a dust cover or inspection plate for the flywheel or whatever .

i checked the teeth on the flywheel and they seem to be fine.

swapped in another new starter and turn the key ..... nothing .. tapped it with a hammer and have had about 15 start ups in the last few days and no more noise.

also noticed the wire going to the starter that actually has a plastic plug piece on it was cut and spliced (not sure by who or when) and was barely connected and had bare wired exposed so i made a better connection and taped the bare wire.

The plate sits flush as is and i have the starter torqued down pretty hard and used locktite this time ..

SO far so good Ill post up if the issues come back at all..

if i hear one more noise like that it will be time to replace that piece with a new one before i start messing up teeth on the flywheel.
I gotta say though Ecomikes post is making me a bit nervous!

Ecomike said:

Tell that to the starter and the flex plate, not me. I have been there, done that, and had hell with the starter gear hanging on the flex plate, and not disengaging after the engine started, and staying engaged, also had grinding teeth, not engaging because I short cut the same sort of problem he is having in the same place. I had to learn the lesson the hard, HARD way.

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Different engine, different design.

Talyn said:

Different engine, different design.

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The design was, is the same. Yes, there is more toque in mine, being a diesel and the plate on mine was, is steel.