Name that leak! (Now with pictures!)

[DonkRado]

Quick rundown:
New to me XJ.
~36K on new crate engine.
It dropped at least 3 quarts of oil on the 300 mile drive home.
Possibly drops oil while engine is off.

1990 4.0 Non-HO.
http://www.richmonddubs.com/gallery/d/12461-2/Jeep+006.jpg

http://www.richmonddubs.com/gallery/d/12464-2/Jeep+007.jpg

http://www.richmonddubs.com/gallery/d/12467-1/Jeep+008.jpg

http://www.richmonddubs.com/gallery/d/12470-1/Jeep+009.jpg


So, I'm planning to change out the oil pan gasket, rear main seal, and whatever the seal on the front of the crankshaft is called. I'm also hitting the CCV/FAI hose grommets, and the valve cover gasket. New HV oil pump while I'm in there. Sealing it all up with Castrol GTX 10-30 on a Napa Gold (Wix) filter.

Sorry for the ignorant question, but could someone please tell me the technical name of that front main crank seal? I haven't found it, but I've found like three names for the rear main seal.

Anything else strongly recommended while I'm in there? Thanks.

[RichP]

Before you go ripping it apart check the bolts that hold the front timing chain cover. The ones on my 98 were loose, the only thing keeping them in was the harmonic balancer. I only noticed it when I was changing the water pump, tightened them back up and that mysterious 1 quart between oil changes vanished. Oh yea, it was only the lower bolts that were loose, the ones behind the balancer, not the upper ones, go figure.

[1985xjlaredo]

Well I dont know what the tech name for the "front main seal" is but I would say the if you do all of that to your rig then it should be oil tight! Tell us how it goes. If its not too bad im sure mine could use it too:)

[erikwylie]

Something else that you may want to check before you tear it apart is that you don't have to much pressure in the crank case. I had by mistake put a PCV valve in place of the breather hose that goes from the top of the Valve cover to the air box. Well I lost as much or more oil in about the same time. I replaced it with the just a vent hose and the problem went away. Something to check.

Erik

[Dzl DV8]

who is the source of the crate motor?
(I'm shopping)

[DonkRado]

Something else that you may want to check before you tear it apart is that you don't have to much pressure in the crank case. I had by mistake put a PCV valve in place of the breather hose that goes from the top of the Valve cover to the air box. Well I lost as much or more oil in about the same time. I replaced it with the just a vent hose and the problem went away. Something to check.

Erik

Yeah. I pulled the CCV and FAI hoses last night. I probably ruined the FAI in taking it off, but I'm aiming for peace of mind, new stuff here. The CCV was just a total nasty carbon-ish mess of soot and buildup. I'm sure it was creating some issues, but I don't know that they were of the oil pressure variety. My oil pressure was actually about 40 cold, ~20 idle warm, 35-40 under load warm. That's all within spec, but that $75 for the new oil pump will be minimal when I don't have to pull it all apart again if it turns out bad. It's a good thing that I had a nice wheels/tires fund set up to get the car inspected and on the road. :rolleyes:

[DonkRado]

who is the source of the crate motor?
(I'm shopping)

Not sure. I just picked the car up this past Saturday and haven't had much time to look through the documentation. I'll try to do so for you tonight.

[DonkRado]

Before you go ripping it apart check the bolts that hold the front timing chain cover. The ones on my 98 were loose, the only thing keeping them in was the harmonic balancer. I only noticed it when I was changing the water pump, tightened them back up and that mysterious 1 quart between oil changes vanished. Oh yea, it was only the lower bolts that were loose, the ones behind the balancer, not the upper ones, go figure.

Yeah, It's entirely possible that it's something more simple. At the rate of 2+ quarts every ~200 miles, it's something big. The timing chain cover seal would be a possible explanation for some of the oil trailing down the top and sides of the oil pan. It could also certainly leak while off and create that nice black stream of oil running directly down from the crank seal area. I'm going to go ahead and order everything that I think I'll need, so as to be prepared. If I find that TC cover to be loose, I'll just torque it down, fill it back up with oil and give it a test run for leaks before going further.

Also, do you know if the front crank seal is possibly called the timing cover seal? I've found reference to a timing cover gasket and a seal. Seems like the gasket would be for the cover itself, perhaps the seal for the one dead in the middle of it? Thanks.

[xyjbeaker]

wow, that is one sexy xj...
the funny part is i was just going to e-mail you this thread then i started thinking "i have seen those oil spots before"... looks like you found it already.
the not funny part is that it is still leaking. sorry 'bout that one.:dunno:

[RichP]

Yeah, It's entirely possible that it's something more simple. At the rate of 2+ quarts every ~200 miles, it's something big. The timing chain cover seal would be a possible explanation for some of the oil trailing down the top and sides of the oil pan. It could also certainly leak while off and create that nice black stream of oil running directly down from the crank seal area. I'm going to go ahead and order everything that I think I'll need, so as to be prepared. If I find that TC cover to be loose, I'll just torque it down, fill it back up with oil and give it a test run for leaks before going further.

Also, do you know if the front crank seal is possibly called the timing cover seal? I've found reference to a timing cover gasket and a seal. Seems like the gasket would be for the cover itself, perhaps the seal for the one dead in the middle of it? Thanks.

Yes, it's just a seal around the snout of the crank, there is no pressure in that area, just a bath for the chain. You have to pull the balancer to change it though. Might want to do the balancer with a new one as well while you have it apart, they tend to seperate in the middle and walk either in or out over time, out usually takes out the serpentine belt as it tracks wrong, in usually takes out the belt and timing cover as it grinds into it. Don't loose the woodruff key when you take it apart, some new ones come with, some don't.

[DonkRado]

Ok,
Last night was an informative one for me and the XJ.
Going through all of the paperwork, I learned that the engine is not actually a 'new crate engine', but is in fact just a regular reman.
When I went to pull an oil pan bolt so that I could match it and buy replacements for the missing ones, I found out that several of the pan bolts were only finger tight. When I went to remove the valve cover, I found the majority of those bolts to be only finger tight as well. So, it's no wonder that I'm having some serious leaks. I haven't pulled the HD off yet, so I don't know if the timing cover is loose, but I'd say there's a decent chance of it.

At this point, I'm not planning on replacing the HD. It looks to be in good shape, and it should be a simple replacement afterwards if it turns out to be needed. I rented a HD puller and installer, so I'm hoping that stuff should go textbook.

[RedHeep]

Woodruff keys are a couple bucks for an assortment in the "help" section at your local parts place. Wouldn't hurt to pick up a pack just in case.

[DonkRado]

Woodruff keys are a couple bucks for an assortment in the "help" section at your local parts place. Wouldn't hurt to pick up a pack just in case.
Yep. Got an assortment of them with all of the gear downstairs.

http://www.richmonddubs.com/gallery/d/12500-2/JeepCorrado+005.jpg

[yardape]

Stupid question maybe but why aren't you calling the vendor up and hammering them for another engine done right?

[TJ-Shocker]

If you have had luck like that so far, I would also make sure there isn't an extra rubber seal under the oil filter. On occasion...if their lucky, and forget about the old one the new one gets put on just right as to provide a pretty good seal. Only happened once to me and it wasn't a lucky situation so I noticed it pretty quick.

My .02, if you are like me and my new 90 XJ, oil and filter change is probably on your list. I'm guessing that your don't trust the seller and do it anyway list is getting longer by the minute.

Better luck. If I say it, it has to happen right? Hope you got a good deal on it since the seller probably had the same problems.

[yardape]

Stupid question maybe but why aren't you calling the vendor up and hammering them for another engine done right?

Oops, sorry. I thought you bought an engine,... not a whole used XJ.

[DonkRado]

Yeah. At this point I'm not overly worried about the cost. I was certainly under the impression that things were a bit more square than they are, but for the price I paid.... I'm still ahead of the curve. Now... time to see if I can get the HD off of there.

[DonkRado]

Well, everything is back together short of the oil pump, rear main seal, and oil pan. I trashed the first rear main seal trying to get it in there, so I'm going to go pick up another (or two). Anyone have any tips as to how to install the thing without shredding the outer lip? I put it in the freezer overnight and I put liquid soap on the outside, oil on the inside. What is everyone else using to push the thing into place?

[RichP]

Napa will have a cheater tool, piece of plastic coated cable with a screw on the end. you loop the cable over the top of the crank, screw the new top seal into it and then pull it thru. The real way to do it is loosen the crank a bit so it drops a hair, then install.

[DonkRado]

Hmm... I tried dropping the crank a tiny bit to remove the old seal, but got a bit nervous when I started thinking about everything else that lowering it would effect. I went back to the ever so gentle and frustrating hammer and tiny screwdriver method. I wish I knew where my brass punch was.
I intend to finish up the project tomorrow, so you'd be my hero if you could answer two questions for me.
If I were to go about loosening the crank a bit, how many of the bearing caps do I need to loosen?
Ok.. priming the oil pump. I just went around town and no one had a oil pump primer for anything other than a GM or Ford, and neither fit the bill. What exactly do I need to do? Should I pack the pump with vaseline or moly grease? I picked up the longest shafted screwdriver I could find at the store, so I just bust the top off of that, put it in a drill and crank for a few minutes?
Thank you.

[RichP]

I would loosen all of them slightly then loosen them a bit more as you move from front to back there should not be an issue, in fact if you leave the front ones tight there could be an issue.
As for the priming, prefer vasoline myself, long screwdriver, just make sure the blade end is big enough to fill the slot so it won't pop out. If you have a mechanical gauge handy might want to consider swapping out the sender and put the mech gauge in there so you can watch it unless you have a set of eyes to put in the drivers seat...

[DonkRado]

Ok, finally got all of that done. I primed it with a drill for a few minutes, and it jumped right up to pressure and held it nicely. Of course, when I went to start it, it tried cranking for a second and then started up with the next problem to deal with.
When you turn the ignition, the starter doesn't make a peep, but the fuel pump goes crazy. At first I thought that the starter had busted off the bendix and was just spinning free, but after listening from under the car it's definitely the fuel pump.

There's a pretty healthy covering of oil on the electricals and casing of the starter. That'd be my first bet, unless it's maybe some electrical gremlin. Does the fuel pump usually kick into overdrive when cranking the car? It sounds weird to me, but I guess that I might not usually hear it over the engine turning over.

[XJ_99]

Is the harmonic balencer hard to get off? I need to know because my 91 is dumpin about 2quarts every 3-4 days....And also is that front seal hard to get out and put the new one in?

[Blaine B.]

I heard it can be a pain the ass. I didn't get to see it done but my friend said it was a major pain. Although I don't think he had a puller specifically for harmonic balancers. He did use a puller though.

[GrimmJeeper]

holy 2006 Batman! props for searching! :D

[mcnamaag]

holy 2006 Batman! props for searching! :D

X2.

I dont think the job is that hard. Basic hand tools and a HB puller. Its easier with the Radiator out of the way IIRC. Pop the old seal out wit a big Screw Driver, Put new seal in.

[Jeff in VA]

Check the beginning of my post on replacing the timing chain, I took alot of pics that might help you. Mine's a 2.5L, but it's the same process on a 4.0.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=903937

Jeff