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ATF raid on Ares armor.

tbburg

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Scottsdale AZ
Anybody following this?

There's pretty full coverage at Bearingarms.com (link) I linked to one of the articles, but there's four or five on the issue as I write this.

Thhis is kind of new.(for me at least) Not ATF abuse, their ever-changing "rule of the day", the "hut hut hut" full swat gear "raids", etc. What is new and disturbing is ATF going after a customer list. At one point Ares offered to hand over their stock of plastic 80% receivers. The sticking point was the ATFs demand for the customer list, and that's what they got in the raid.

Any thoughts?
 
yeah, I'm already on everyone's lists anyway... this is just one more example of Federal over-reach. I was really looking forward to building a poly-receiver AR.
 
When people are building their own plastic ar's, that could be considered a loop hole. When a company is manufacturing plastic ar receivers for sale, then sells a bunch of them, they are blatantly exploiting that loop hole, and frankly i dont feel bad when the ATF shows up on their door.

Non registered guns arent a good thing, you cant argue 'because obama' to justify felonious activity.
 
When people are building their own plastic ar's, that could be considered a loop hole. When a company is manufacturing plastic ar receivers for sale, then sells a bunch of them, they are blatantly exploiting that loop hole, and frankly i dont feel bad when the ATF shows up on their door.
There's a question here weather they were in fact manufacturing "Firearms". It's a pretty arcane subject, that seems like it should be straightforward. Here's how it works:

According to the government, a "firearm" must carry manufacturer's identifying marks and a serial number. The actual "firearm" is not a complete weapon, but some component of the weapon deemed essential by the government. The "essential component" of an AR-style rifle is the lower receiver. All simple so far.

Now for the fun part. A forging blank or billet is not a receiver without a lot of machine work in some pretty specialized jigs and fixtures. At some point during the machining process the magic happens and the forging blank becomes a deadly firearm. The controversy starts when you try to define when machined metal becomes a finished piece and is considered a firearm for manufacturing/registration purposes.(It's kind of like the abortion debate.) For government purposes, the magic happens at 80%. This is where you get an "80% lower" - a lower receiver that has 80% of the machine work done, but is not yet far enough along to be serial numbered and counted as a firearm. This 80% lower may be sold as a gun part, and not as a firearm. That's the "loophole".

(here I'm a little fuzzy on the details) I've read that in the case of our AR lower receiver, there are 5 machining steps that need to be completed to finish the part. This can be done on a high quality drill press if you're good, but it's much easier to do on a mill.
(back on more solid footing now) Ares has been selling metal 80% receiver blanks for some time, and operates within the law as defined by ATFE. Ares started selling plastic lower receiver blanks that require the same machining steps to complete as the legal metal receivers. They're functionally identical. The ATFE has recently decided the plastic receivers are complete firearms and Ares is manufacturing without a license.

From here we get into an argument about how the receiver is manufactured. Aresa claims a plug is inserted in a mold and the composite injected around it. ATF says the plug is inserted after molding, which would mean one of the machining operations required to be left un-done was in fact finished prior to sale, crossing the magic "80%" threshold. Ares claims the ATF has never visited their manufacturing facility, so presumably ATF came up with their version of events based on inspection of a unfinished receiver.(or some bureaucrat just pulled it out of his a**, that happens at ATF a lot,..). If we care we'll be able to read about it on 3-5 years when the court case is closed.(ATF trials tend to take several years, as the prosecutors like to drag things out as long a possible. - Topic for another time.)

The controversy here isn't the receivers. ATF wants the customer list from Ares. Most people think this is to track down the buyers for backdoor registration purposes, so they know "who gots the guns" when TSHTF(if it ever does)
In actuality, it's for more overt purposes. ATF loves slam dunk convictions. Over 90% of ATF convictions are based on paperwork violations. So you go to federal prison, not because you hurt somebody, but because you didn't fill out a form, or didn't fill it out correctly, or failed to keep your copy of the form available for inspection.

There's a grey area as to weather it's legal to transfer a non-serial numbered firearm between private parties, but it straight up black and white as far as manufacturing. If you buy an 80% lower and complete it, you can not transfer that firearm without filling out a lot of paperwork with the feds because you are a firearm manufacturer, just like Colt, Remington, or Ruger. In ATFs eyes, that customer list is a list of slam-sunk felony paperwork violations just waiting to be filed. Imagine, "Hi! I'm with ATF. You bought this part. Here's the sales receipt. Finished it? Still got it? No?.. ..,And these are handcuffs!" Done.
They don't give a sh** where the finished gun ends up.





Non-registered guns aren't a good thing, you cant argue 'because obama' to justify felonious activity.
All of my guns are "Non-registered", nor are they required to be. It's not a felony or misdemeanor where I live, and I kind of resent the implication, thanks anyway,..

As for "because Obama",.. Well, both the ATF and the IRS agents are committing what appear to be felonies, and they're getting away with it "because Obama". But that's cool right? "because Obama"? So "because Obama" is an excuse that's only good if you work for the Federal Government. Did I get that right?
 
When people are building their own plastic ar's, that could be considered a loop hole. When a company is manufacturing plastic ar receivers for sale, then sells a bunch of them, they are blatantly exploiting that loop hole, and frankly i dont feel bad when the ATF shows up on their door.

Non registered guns arent a good thing, you cant argue 'because obama' to justify felonious activity.


I used to think you were smart.

Wrong again.
 
Except the people buying these so called '80% receivers' are not firearm manufacturers, any more so than we are car manufacturers because we build custom offroad vehicles. They are teabagger 'OBAMAS COMING FOR MY GUNS!' nutjobs. The people buying these blanks are not building them custom, or for performance, they are building them specifically to get them unserialized.

I have no sympathy for the legal problems resulting from building illegal firearms. Nor the profiting from the selling of illegal firearm parts.

GET OVER IT, the feds figured out your little scheme/loophole. Wah wah.
 
The people buying these blanks are not building them custom, or for performance, they are building them specifically to get them unserialized.

I have no sympathy for the legal problems resulting from building illegal firearms. Nor the profiting from the selling of illegal firearm parts.

GET OVER IT, the feds figured out your little scheme/loophole. Wah wah.

I disagree with your overall stance on this, but for the sake of argument... let's say you're right. The issue here is that the ATF is *still* in the wrong. Let's say it IS a loophole, and being used to do bad bad bad bad things!! Well, sorry, but LEGALLY, the ATF can't do anything about it until the lawmakers catch up. They aren't allowed to be judge jury and executioner any more than you or I are allowed to be if we witness a murder. (Part of) the reason people are so upset over this is it's yet another example of government pulling the "do as I say, not as I do" crap.


As a side note, with reference to the "they are building them specifically to get them unserialized"......if that's the case, which, really you don't know.....SO WHAT? Is the gun suddenly so much more deadly now that it doesn't have a number on it? Evil evil evil!!! :rolleyes:
 
Except the people buying these so called '80% receivers' are not firearm manufacturers, any more so than we are car manufacturers because we build custom offroad vehicles. They are teabagger 'OBAMAS COMING FOR MY GUNS!' nutjobs. The people buying these blanks are not building them custom, or for performance, they are building them specifically to get them unserialized.

I have no sympathy for the legal problems resulting from building illegal firearms. Nor the profiting from the selling of illegal firearm parts.

GET OVER IT, the feds figured out your little scheme/loophole. Wah wah.

The feds created the ****ing loophole in the first place.

Also, you might have missed this, but until there was a giant outcry, CT was going to be confiscating guns owned by people who sent in their registration forms (the ones that would have made the weapons, which were legal in the past, and would have been legal still, if the form had been sent in a day earlier - the definition of bullshit right there) a few days late. They realized that was probably a rather unwise choice when basically everyone in the state who cares about guns at all objected loudly, and extended the registration period as I recall...

Registration leads to confiscation.

As for custom offroad vehicles, did you realize no cats on one (if it was originally made as an on-road vehicle) is a federal/EPA clean air act violation and can land you in some serious trouble? I'm only about 90% certain of that... but it's basically the same argument as you're making, except in this case I'm pretty sure you are on the other side of it.

The feds love paperwork they can **** people over with, even if it doesn't solve any problems or get any criminals off the street. Hell, they nabbed Al Capone on tax evasion, not on being a thug.
 
Except the people buying these so called '80% receivers' are not firearm manufacturers, any more so than we are car manufacturers because we build custom offroad vehicles. They are teabagger 'OBAMAS COMING FOR MY GUNS!' nutjobs. The people buying these blanks are not building them custom, or for performance, they are building them specifically to get them unserialized.

I have no sympathy for the legal problems resulting from building illegal firearms. Nor the profiting from the selling of illegal firearm parts.

GET OVER IT, the feds figured out your little scheme/loophole. Wah wah.

Guess what...its not illegal to own an unserialized gun. It's only illegal to sell them, buy them or give them to someone else.

Get some brains before you type. You really look stupid.
 
Holy shit! ATF better go find this place and shut them down in a hurry, and grab their customer list too! Just look at all that metal that *might* become a firearm someday!

Steel%20Mill.jpg
 
The feds created the ****ing loophole in the first place.

Also, you might have missed this, but until there was a giant outcry, CT was going to be confiscating guns owned by people who sent in their registration forms (the ones that would have made the weapons, which were legal in the past, and would have been legal still, if the form had been sent in a day earlier - the definition of bullshit right there) a few days late. They realized that was probably a rather unwise choice when basically everyone in the state who cares about guns at all objected loudly, and extended the registration period as I recall...


Kind of half truth here. They did not extend the registration period. The confiscation that most of the media portrayed was the jack booted thug style kicking in doors. They are still pushing the confiscation just with a lot less media coverage since most were not reporting the full story. The people who did mail their registration forms in that were post marked jan 1st or later were mailed back a message stating that they missed the deadline and were no longer in compliance with the law. The letters stated that they have a few options to become legal again 1 sell the gun/ magazines that hold over 10 rounds (that's right you had to register mags over 10 rounds) out of state/ move the gun/magazines to another state 2 render the firearm/ magazines inoperable 3 turn guns/ magazines into pd/ffl/state police, 4 on magazines permanently modify them so they can not hold over 10 rounds. Confiscation? yes I see it that way, but not quite the way everyone imagines it. The stupid laws did open a can of worms though due to the way it is written it un-banned "assault weapons" that were previously banned here as long as they were made pre-94.

And as DrMoab stated its not illegal to own a 80% paper weight or mill one out (unless youre in ct in any caliber but .22/ single shot/ bolt action) it is only illegal to sell one since that would make you a manufacturer.
 
Ahh, I don't quite understand the way the law is written. But then again I bet most of the retards who voted for it don't understand it either.

How do you register a magazine, anyways? Seeing as they have no identifying markings and are completely harmless. That's about as much use as registering beer boxes to prevent drunk driving.
 
Ahh, I don't quite understand the way the law is written. But then again I bet most of the retards who voted for it don't understand it either.

How do you register a magazine, anyways? Seeing as they have no identifying markings and are completely harmless. That's about as much use as registering beer boxes to prevent drunk driving.

I kind of used the wrong term in registration in regards to the magazines. They wanted you to declare (still registration) how many magazines you had that held over 10 rounds and for what guns the went to. Link to see for yourself http://www.ct.gov/despp/lib/despp/slfu/firearms/despp-0788-c_magazine_declaration.pdf See some stupidity there?

Also had to register links for shrike uppers/ belt feds (quite a few people here have some nice belt feds)

There is a couple of big lawsuits here protesting the fact on how it was pushed through using the e-cert process that was done illegally. I know a gun shop I help out it is really big and working with the ccdl (http://www.ccdl.us/) in fighting it. Have been getting donations and support from through out the entire country to help with litigation funds
 
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