NAXJA Forums -::- North American XJ Association  

Go Back   NAXJA Forums -::- North American XJ Association > NAXJA Unibody Jeep Technical Forums > Jeep Cherokee XJ (1984 - 2001) > OEM Tech Discussion
HOME Member FAQ Sponsor Info Rules Bylaws E-Mail

OEM Tech Discussion Forum for OEM (Original Equipment) or stock XJs and MJs.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #106  
Old June 13th, 2019, 00:56
soyjer soyjer is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: California
Posts: 142
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by soyjer View Post
I'm not understanding how the clunk/lurch would occur, due to the above, with the transmission output shaft held stationary by the vehicle. Wouldn't that prevent the transmission parts (other than the input shaft) from spinning?
Did some more thinking...are you saying that when the forward clutch engages, it merely connects the input shaft to the guts of the transmission, and those guts ("spinning parts") are not connected to the output shaft until the low/reverse clutch is engaged?
If so, then I think you may have found my problem.
Unplugging the TCU doesn't help...any idea what might cause the forward clutch to (prematurely) engage before the low/reverse clutch?
Any idea how my transmission rebuilder (and also a 2nd transmission shop) could have missed this?
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old June 13th, 2019, 12:01
soyjer soyjer is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: California
Posts: 142
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Been studying my AW4 manuals...the DIAGNOSIS CHART shows many possible reasons for "HARSH ENGAGEMENT FROM NEUTRAL TO DRIVE OR REVERSE", but if I eliminate the ones that involve driveshafts, differentials, etc. and the more obvious ones that have been checked by multiple mechanics (such as motor mounts, which I will recheck), this is what is left:

Band Misadjusted - Adjust rear band.

Valve Body Check Balls Missing - Inspect valve body for proper check ball installation.

Clutch, band or planetary component Damaged - Remove, disassemble and repair
transmission as necessary.

Converter Clutch Faulty - Replace converter and flush cooler and line before installing new converter.

When the transmission/torque converter were rebuilt (in an attempt to solve the "clunk/lurch after pausing in Neutral" problem), the first thing that the shop owner mechanic tried was to swap in what he called a shift kit, and that didn't solve the problem.

If my transmission had entered the shop with a check ball missing, would the shift kit installation necessarily solve that problem, or does the shift kit just use my existing valve body, such that the always-missing check ball could have been overlooked when the shift kit was installed? In other words, could the mechanic have just assumed that the check balls were all present without looking it up, and then tried out the shift kit with the that check ball missing?

And if that check ball was missing, would my transmission be able to function perfectly in every other way (as it always has), or would there be other noticeable problems besides just my "clunk/lurch after pausing in Neutral" problem?

I have complete AW4 manuals, including valve body check ball locations and also color hydraulic flow diagrams, so eventually perhaps I can figure it out, but if anyone out there already knows these answers...please let me know.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old June 13th, 2019, 17:12
Anak's Avatar
Anak Anak is offline
Stranger
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: In a strange land
Posts: 3,160
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

And is the converter entirely ruled out?
__________________
Project "Scope Creep": 1996 4wd 4.0L, AX15
....

Baby it's cold outside.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old June 13th, 2019, 19:33
lawsoncl lawsoncl is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 4,999
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anak View Post
And is the converter entirely ruled out?



He posted earlier (not sure which thread) that the transmission and t/c had been professionally rebuilt and replaced. It's not a common failure mode, but if the clutch inside the t/c is damaged and binding up when it's not supposed to, you'd see heavy engine loading when put into gear. If the transmission guy actually rebuilt the trans and at least inspected the t/c, that should have been obvious (and probably self destructed sometime since he originally poted this a year ago).





He also said those same pros ruled out the easy stuff like motor mounts, high idle speed, throttle body cable, which in my mind are still prime suspects. (How about some pics, btw?) If the mounts have never been replaced they're probably bad and the exhaust pipe is banging against something.



He has also apparently eliminated the rear diff, as the symptom persisted with the rear drive shaft removed and the xfer case in 4-high.



I kinda wish he lived out this way, as I'd love to have a look at this in person.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old June 13th, 2019, 21:33
soyjer soyjer is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: California
Posts: 142
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawsoncl View Post
He posted earlier (not sure which thread) that the transmission and t/c had been professionally rebuilt and replaced. It's not a common failure mode, but if the clutch inside the t/c is damaged and binding up when it's not supposed to, you'd see heavy engine loading when put into gear. If the transmission guy actually rebuilt the trans and at least inspected the t/c, that should have been obvious (and probably self destructed sometime since he originally poted this a year ago).
He also said those same pros ruled out the easy stuff like motor mounts, high idle speed, throttle body cable, which in my mind are still prime suspects. (How about some pics, btw?) If the mounts have never been replaced they're probably bad and the exhaust pipe is banging against something.
He has also apparently eliminated the rear diff, as the symptom persisted with the rear drive shaft removed and the xfer case in 4-high.
I kinda wish he lived out this way, as I'd love to have a look at this in person.
I have to periodically remind readers that as long as I do not pause in Neutral, the problem doesn't occur. If it also shifted harshly into Drive without pausing in Neutral then that would greatly expand the possibilities for the problem source.
I've never driven an AW4 before, but to me it performs flawlessly in every way (including lock-up and kick-down functions of the torque converter) as long as I don't pause in Neutral. Shifts are all harsh compared to my Buick, but I'm told that this is normal...that the AW4 is just a relatively harsh shifting transmission. Additionally, all the pros that have driven it agree that it is normal in every way except for this one single problem.
I'm going to post videos of the engine and mounts, and it would be great if the mounts were the problem, but since they've been looked at by numerous mechanics, whereas the transmission was only looked at by one mechanic (the rebuilding mechanic), I'm figuring the odds of something being overlooked in the transmission are higher than bad motor mounts being missed by the bunch of mechanics. But then that's coming from someone who is just now starting to learn about the AW4...for all I know there may be no possible way that the AW4 could ONLY exhibit the very limited problem that I am experiencing. Hoping to hear from an AW4 expert...otherwise, I'll be doing a lot of studying for a while.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old June 14th, 2019, 17:22
blu3fan's Avatar
blu3fan blu3fan is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: california
Posts: 367
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Honestly.
my jeep has always clunked into drive. figured its a normal AW4 thing.
Its considerably worse on hills.
Been that way for 13 years.
I have never even considered it not normal.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old June 15th, 2019, 07:41
Tim_MN's Avatar
Tim_MN Tim_MN is offline
Freakish Hand Strength
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,622
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Somehow his XJ is special. My current XJ fleet is comprised of 3: 1998 with 284,000 miles, 1998 with 165,000 miles, and 2000 with 126,000 miles. All three clunk now and then, same as the other 5 XJ's I have previously owned.

Been that way for 16 years. I have never even considered it not normal.
__________________
.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjeeper

Go ahead and slam the liftgate down on a blanket, and see how long you are laughing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by soyjer

Tim MAY be 100% correct, but why would a person automatically pick him as the expert .....
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old June 15th, 2019, 09:47
soyjer soyjer is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: California
Posts: 142
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_MN View Post
Somehow his XJ is special. My current XJ fleet is comprised of 3: 1998 with 284,000 miles, 1998 with 165,000 miles, and 2000 with 126,000 miles. All three clunk now and then, same as the other 5 XJ's I have previously owned.
Been that way for 16 years. I have never even considered it not normal.
Tim...you've been very helpful to me in the past (cruise control, etc.) and you always made sure that you understood the problem before commenting, so I just don't understand why you and others keep insisting that you have experienced my XJ's problem while simultaneously describing a totally different problem. I get that all XJ's clunk. That doesn't mean that ALL clunks are benign and normal.
If you and others can't explain why mine only clunks when standing still and after a pause in Neutral, or at least demonstrate that MANY XJ's only clunk when standing still and after a pause in Neutral, then how can you declare it normal?

I removed the drive shaft. and hopefully that will prevent people here from continuing to insist it's the rear end, at least.

I've asked before and I'm asking again...no, begging...for anyone who thinks my XJ's problem is normal to PLEASE move on to another thread and leave me alone. PLEASE!
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old June 15th, 2019, 12:51
devildog0's Avatar
devildog0 devildog0 is offline
NAXJA Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hunt County Texas
Posts: 700
Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Post video of your noise/clunk from inside and outside the vehicle,i cant remeber if you've done this already.

I still think you're hyper analyzing this problem and there's actually no problem other than this vehicle was designed well before stringent NVH standards of today's cars.

Ill go do your shifting test in a little bit.


Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
__________________
1995 XJ Country/4.0L/AW4/231/UpCountry Suspension
2004 Suzuki DL650 VStrom/1978 Suzuki GS1000E/2003 Yamaha TW200
1982 Suzuki GS850G (barnfind project)
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old June 15th, 2019, 17:35
soyjer soyjer is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: California
Posts: 142
Talking Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devildog0 View Post
Post video of your noise/clunk from inside and outside the vehicle,i cant remeber if you've done this already.

I still think you're hyper analyzing this problem and there's actually no problem other than this vehicle was designed well before stringent NVH standards of today's cars.

Ill go do your shifting test in a little bit.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
If you went to buy an XJ tomorrow, and you mentioned to the seller that the XJ clunk/lurched rather violently whenever you paused in Neutral before shifting into Drive (but not when you shift quickly from Reverse to Drive), and his answer was just "then don't do that", would you still pay the same price for that XJ as for one that didn't have that unexplained "quirk"?
That is one reason that I need to diagnose this problem...any buyer who has ever driven an XJ would either immediately walk away from this one or would require at least a $1000 discount on the price...if they are smart.
If the clunk/lurch did NOT disappear without a pause in Neutral, in other words if it clunk/lurched no matter how you shifted into Drive, then, if I were unscrupulous, I could just tell a novice buyer that "all XJ's do that" (violent clunk/lurch when shifted into Drive) and a novice buyer might believe it...but I guarantee that anyone with XJ experience would say "no they don't". How do I know this?...because my XJ exhibits normal shifts into Drive as long as I don't pause in Neutral...so I KNOW how an XJ is supposed to shift into Drive...I KNOW what normal is. And the violent shifts into Drive on my XJ after pausing in Neutral aren't even in the same ballpark as the smooth shifts without pausing in Neutral.
If you don't believe me , why don't you believe the professionals that all agree that this is not normal. Two of them were Jeep dealership technicians during the XJ's most popular years...are all these mechanics just insane?
Why do I have to keep explaining this?
If you believe that it is normal, just move on to the next thread...why are you wasting your time (and mine) in this thread. Go help someone who you feel has a real problem...please!
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old June 16th, 2019, 08:18
devildog0's Avatar
devildog0 devildog0 is offline
NAXJA Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hunt County Texas
Posts: 700
Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

All 3 auto XJs ive owned have exhibited some kind of clunk/lurch when shifting into drive. If i test drove yours and i felt it was normal in comparison to my previous experience i wouldnt think anything about it.

Youve been chasing your tail on this issue for what a year or 2? If your intention is really to sell it why expend all this time/effort/stress for a little extra money?

Im on my way out to the garage now ill shoot some.video of the test you want done.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
__________________
1995 XJ Country/4.0L/AW4/231/UpCountry Suspension
2004 Suzuki DL650 VStrom/1978 Suzuki GS1000E/2003 Yamaha TW200
1982 Suzuki GS850G (barnfind project)

Last edited by devildog0; June 16th, 2019 at 09:18.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old June 16th, 2019, 10:00
devildog0's Avatar
devildog0 devildog0 is offline
NAXJA Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hunt County Texas
Posts: 700
Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Here ya go. I think its opposite of yours. even though i got less noise on the N to D shift the noise was reduced the lurch still felt the same. But that will be subjective to whos in the seat.

Also i rebuilt the tcase about a month ago and it had a horribly loose chain. I dont remeber any excessive noise but i also could have just been ignoring it because it was so loose it was jumping the spockets inside the case. And before i had it it waw a garage kept street jeep. Very little if any off pavement work. Still had a stretched chain.

http://youtu.be/PNGhN05is_w

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
__________________
1995 XJ Country/4.0L/AW4/231/UpCountry Suspension
2004 Suzuki DL650 VStrom/1978 Suzuki GS1000E/2003 Yamaha TW200
1982 Suzuki GS850G (barnfind project)
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old June 16th, 2019, 10:57
lawsoncl lawsoncl is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 4,999
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devildog0 View Post

I noticed your XJ is moving forward and back an inch or tow when you do this. It doesn't look like the pinion is rotating up and down, like it's the leaf springs winding up though. Maybe weak rear brakes and the tires are actually turning and it's the front brakes holding the vehicle?
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old June 16th, 2019, 11:16
soyjer soyjer is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: California
Posts: 142
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devildog0 View Post
Here ya go. I think its opposite of yours. even though i got less noise on the N to D shift the noise was reduced the lurch still felt the same. But that will be subjective to whos in the seat.

Also i rebuilt the tcase about a month ago and it had a horribly loose chain. I dont remeber any excessive noise but i also could have just been ignoring it because it was so loose it was jumping the spockets inside the case. And before i had it it waw a garage kept street jeep. Very little if any off pavement work. Still had a stretched chain.

http://youtu.be/PNGhN05is_w

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Thank you. Mine always consistently shifts just as smoothly as yours, as long as I don't pause in Neutral. This is what I predicted, but your video confirms it.
Yes, I could just take a big hit on my selling price, but if it's something (missing check ball in transmission?) that I can fix economically, I'd rather do that. I don't mind investing the time.
If readers of this thread had just done my test (or not), which is all I requested (see thread title) instead of arguing with me about its need, this whole thread would have been only a fraction of a page long.
Thanks again for doing the test.
Now I'll get a bunch of posts questioning its need, again, undoubtedly...but now that my question has been answered, I won't need to try to discourage them, anymore. Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old June 16th, 2019, 12:54
lawsoncl lawsoncl is offline
NAXJA Forum User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 4,999
Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by soyjer View Post
if it's something (missing check ball in transmission?) that I can fix economically, I'd rather do that. I don't mind investing the time.

A missing check ball, even though the symptoms didn't change after a transmission rebuilt, including replacing the valve body? You seem intent on finding some very rare failure mode of the AW4 that no-one here has seen.



If you're still convinced it's inside the transmission or the torque converter, go pickup a used AW4 and t/c and swap them in. They can be had used for under $200. Do you have the means to do a transmission swap?


Personally, I'd start with looking at the easy things that have already been suggested. Get underneath and try to locate the noise. Is the exhaust hitting something? Is your idle rpm too high. Adjust the trans cable instead of quoting mechanics who were obviously wrong. Motor and transmission mounts if original are probably shot. They're relatively cheap and easier than pulling the transmission. Rent or buy a gauge and check the transmission hydraulic pressures per troubleshooting guide in the fsm you have.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New map and no results Boneless-Jeeper OEM Tech Discussion 2 September 23rd, 2010 22:21
KOH Results? mikedashg SoCal Chapter 5 March 1st, 2009 17:56
TTC results are in... Willis Non-Tech / Off Topic 7 April 19th, 2004 08:53
The results... seanR Midwest Chapter 37 April 12th, 2004 15:58
results of the 4/3 run bugman1964 Colorado Chapter 10 April 5th, 2004 13:18


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
NAXJA and NAXJA logo's Copyright NAXJA. All content/images Copyright NAXJA 1999-2014