• NAXJA is having its 18th annual March Membership Drive!!!
    Everyone who joins or renews during March will be entered into a drawing!
    More Information - Join/Renew
  • Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

trying to fight the usual insurance company rip-off

92xjsp

NAXJA Forum User
Well, the insurance company (Progressive Auto Ins) is jerking me around over my XJ, so I’m going to try to take them to arbitration. I’m posting up here to see if any of you guys can suggest some good arguments that I should make or help me find some facts online to support my arguments (such as my claim that in today’s used auto market, most used XJs are probably being bought by off-roaders like us who care more for solid mechanics than a little trail rash or peeling paint).

Below is the story and my basic argument. Please help me strengthen and improve it.


------------------------------------------------------
My 92 XJ with 233K miles got hit from behind about a week ago, and the insurance company (Progressive Auto Ins) totaled it and says it is worth only $1000, despite having a bunch of mechanical improvements (see list below). They get that value by starting with $1845 as the value of a 92 XJ in good condition and similar mileage, and subtracting $800 for visible body damage (namely some trail rash on the right front and that notorious white-peely condition of the paint on the roof).

The improvements and maintenance records I have, which they value at $0, are:
- reman Jasper engine 75K miles ago (with service records showing it has been well maintained with Mobil One oil and filters since then)
- 4 Goodrich TA KO tires with 25K miles on them
- Warn winch bumper (no winch, I’m keeping that)
- Flowmaster 50 muffler
- 3-core GDI radiator and history of no cooling problems for last 100K miles
- regular brake maintenance and use of high quality parts
- documented maintenance on rest of jeep since I bought it 136K miles ago

While their valuation method might make sense for a regular passenger car, I argue that it’s the off-road community that is supporting the values of XJs and a handful of other selected SUV models that are especially suited to our hobby. As such, I argue, the reliable engine and other improvements and the good service records on my jeep are much more valuable to potential buyers in the offroad community than is the superficial body damage. Thus, my XJ should be worth at least the average price and more likely somewhat more than average.

Also, their starting price of $1845 seems low. They use what they call “NADA” values. Kelley’s Blue Book web site values a 92 XJ at $2340 on the retail side.

All in all, it seems to me that Progressive should pay me $2500, not the $1000 they are offering. Even at $2500, I can’t begin to replace what I’ve lost through no fault of my own, but at least that amount would better compensate me for my loss.
-------------------------------------------------------------
 
One of those good insurance companies, someones gotta pay for those cheap rates. I would take the receipts in or buy it back and find one with a dead engine or drivetrain. I would keep the bumper too. XJ's around here in the 97+ range are going for $2500 to $5000 in excellent shape.
This dealer seems to get a bunch of them, he's got 3 or 5 on here at a time.
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/ctd/1041260982.html
 
You'll never get insurance companies to give you value for your mods.
 
were you at fault? I did not think they could total it out if it was not your fault. At least not without your consent.

Worst case, just buy it back. Probably only a few hundred.
 
were you at fault? I did not think they could total it out if it was not your fault. At least not without your consent.
If they decide that its not worth the money or effort to fix it, even if it wasn't your fault, they will most likely total it.

If you got hit by someone, and it turned your car into a ball of steel that doesn't resemble an automobile, they aren't going to ask if you want to total it, because they aren't going to fix it.
 
You'll never get insurance companies to give you value for your mods.

unless you took the vehicle to them after your mods and asked them to reevaluate the value of your modifications, you don't have much of a legal "leg to stand on." Your policy is based on the value of the vehicle in their eyes, and the premiums are determined (in part) by that value. You could get your money for the mods, but you would have had to declare them prior to the accident and pay the associated premium increase.

Most insurance companies will review receipts and reevaluate their estimate/ offer if you make a big enough stink, but they usually don't give you much more for anything older than a year (or six months if you have a six month policy)
 
were you at fault? I did not think they could total it out if it was not your fault. At least not without your consent.

Worst case, just buy it back. Probably only a few hundred.

Naw, other guy's fault, but the frame is messed up. Otherwise, there's not that much damage. He hit me on the right rear corner at 40-50 MPH (I was sitting still, waiting to turn) so he tore up the wheel and axle and hatchback and body panels. Very little mechanical. But because of the frame, I would need to find another XJ with a good body and then pay (or spend a month) moving the engine to the new vehicle. That would be cool at another time in my life but right now I don't have time for a major project like that, and paying somebody else to do it would cost a bunch.
 
unless you took the vehicle to them after your mods and asked them to reevaluate the value of your modifications, you don't have much of a legal "leg to stand on." Your policy is based on the value of the vehicle in their eyes, and the premiums are determined (in part) by that value. You could get your money for the mods, but you would have had to declare them prior to the accident and pay the associated premium increase.

Most insurance companies will review receipts and reevaluate their estimate/ offer if you make a big enough stink, but they usually don't give you much more for anything older than a year (or six months if you have a six month policy)

Both of you are making a good point, and that's what is at the heart of our insurance claim problems usually, but this case is a little different. First, this isn't MY insur co - it's the other guy's, because the wreck was his fault.

In fact, it's kind of funny how it happened, according to witnesses that were walkng on the sidewalk - I was stopped waiting to turn left, and there were two other cars stopped behind me, a brand new Mustang and a newish looking generic SUV kind of thing. This guy comes flying down the road behind us and doesn't see us stopped until it's too late, so he swerves into the other lane, cutting off somebody in another new car but not hitting them, and then he fish-tails and loses control and ends up hitting me in my right rear corner. His insurance company has to love him - he swerved around and between $60-80,000 worth of vehicles in order to slam into the one $1,000 beater in the group.

The other difference is that I'm not really trying to get paid for my mods - I'm just trying to argue that, for the people most likely to buy this kind of vehicle, the pre-existing body damage is less important than the strong mechanical history. Instead of taking the $1800 average value and marking it down to $1000 for trail rash, they should take the $1800 and mark it up a little for good mechanics.
 
I think the best you can do is to argue the "good condition" definition that Progressive is using. If it includes some minor damage (trail rash) and some paint damage (clearcoat peeling), I think you would be safe making the argument that $1800 is a good starting point. Remember that they offer roughly 85% of the total value for repair and argue from that point for extras.
 
Something in the back of my mind says you can demand an exact replacement from the person who hit you, of course that just might be my morals and a persons requirement to do whats right.
 
If it were me I would tell them pay what I want or talk to my attorney. Is the vehical in your possesion or on a yard they are paying daily storage?
 
I used to do this for a living.

If you are not happy with what Progressive is offering, go through YOUR insurance company. You'll have to pay your deductible if you go with their offer, but you'll get it back later when your company gets paid by his.

Hit the ads here and find XJ's with comparable mods in comparable condition and show them what they are selling for. This guy has to justify to a supervisor why he's paying you what he's paying, the more ammo you give him the easier that is.
 
Rich and Islander: That is what I was thinking. His insurance company cannot total your vehicle and say that it was only worth this, have a nice day. There is no way for them to accurately assess the condition of your vehicle AFTER the accident, so it should be assumed in excellent condition anyway.

It must be fixed to your satisfaction, or replaced with as exact a replacement as possible. Go through your insurance if you have too.

My wife's blazer was hit on the side about 5 times by a girl who could not park (she also hit the person across the median and the other car beside her as well). The other company wanted us to take it to a cheap-hole in the wall shop. I demanded the best shop in the area, that I knew personally and knew the quality of work. We also got a rental car out of the deal wile the car was in the shop. And when they did not have a similar rental car and tried to give us a sub-compact, we called and got a nicer rental car on their dime. We found out through this that Progressive(what the other driver had) is one of the stingiest companies out there.

Call your insurance company and tell them the ride you are getting from the other company.
 
I have an interesting view of insurance. I feel the companies try to do it too cheap, but I also feel the customer demands too much sometimes (often not knowing what exactly they're complaining about) and meanwhile the shop plays the 2 sides against eachother and ends up making more money than they should.

The condition can be assessed after. Its easy to tell related damage from unrelated damage. Nothing is ever assumed to be "excellent;" the average person treats their car in an average way, and thus it ends up in average condition.
 
Every time something happens to my house or car, I freak out because I know I am going to get screwed one way or another by State Farm.
 
Whenever your vehicle is worth more than the "normal" one is, you need to get an independent appraisel of the vehicle value before it was in the accident. I had to do this when my '77 mint Lincoln was totalled by State Farm. Then I took them the appraisel and they paid me what it was worth. A modified XJ is kind of like a unique classic car. You get them appraised and then pay insurance based on the replacement value. I guess if you looked at it that way, you were underpaying for insurance all the time. Actually though, I do see your point in that your's was basically stock. People with more highly modified XJ's should worry even more.
 
They're paying storage :). That's the one thing in my favor.
Yea they will put the pressure to you. Don't budge, you were hit its their responsability to replace/pay the value of your car and all expenses.
 
I used to do this for a living.

If you are not happy with what Progressive is offering, go through YOUR insurance company. You'll have to pay your deductible if you go with their offer, but you'll get it back later when your company gets paid by his.

Hit the ads here and find XJ's with comparable mods in comparable condition and show them what they are selling for. This guy has to justify to a supervisor why he's paying you what he's paying, the more ammo you give him the easier that is.

Getting my insurance company invovled is a good suggestion, and several people have made it. The problem is that I'm afraid I won't get much support there. My company is AIG (now called 21st century, funny how they change their name just when their parent got famous for going broke), and I talked to them early on, trying to lobby them to lean on Progressive. They assigned an insurance adjuster to the case. Unfortuantely, it's a chick who has no conception of off-roading, as far as I can tell. I tried explaining to her that minor body damage is called "trail rash" and isn't important for determining value to off-roaders, and she didn't seem to buy the concept - she still calls it "pre-existing body damage" with an ominous tone to her voice.

Finding good comparables is also a good idea - I'm going to work on that tonight. I looked before on the national car search websites and didn't have any luck finding stuff as old as mine. Tonight I'll look harder and maybe try the classifieds on some of the wheeling boards.
 
Unfortuantely, it's a chick who has no conception of off-roading, as far as I can tell. I tried explaining to her that minor body damage is called "trail rash" and isn't important for determining value to off-roaders, and she didn't seem to buy the concept - she still calls it "pre-existing body damage" with an ominous tone to her voice.

Body damage is body damage is body damage. If you were to try and sell your Jeep, someone wouldn't care that its "normal" trail rash, its still a dent, and has an effect on body condition rating. Thats like saying that door dings dont matter becuase you'll get them anyways.

I would be glad you have an adjuster who doesn't understand wheeling; you'd likely get less because of the stress you put on drivetrain components. I once was on a case for an teenager's FJ cruiser that was "keyed" at the school parking lot. When I showed up, the key scratches were Mojave Pinstripes- brush scratches from wheeling. When I popped the hood and saw everything caked in mud... we denied the claim because the vehicle was not keyed.

Get the independent appraiser, thats your best course of action, but don't expect to get everything you put into this Jeep back. The plus side for you is the salvage values on XJ's are relatively low because they are so common that you won't pay much to buy it back.
 
Back
Top