Gun Control: RTC VS non-RTC crime rates

All this debate recently has gotten me thinking about gun control and the Right To Carry a handgun.

The statistics are amazing to say the least Against any type of gun control dont own a gun at this point but Ali and I have decided to take a concealed weapon class and buy a couple of nine's

Gun Control: Examining the 2005 FBI Crime Statistics
By Howard Nemerov | November 17, 2006 - 10:30 ET

FBI data by violent crime rate uncovers some interesting results. The seven least violent states are all shall-issue right-to-carry (RTC). Of the seven most violent states, three are non-RTC (includes D.C.) Since about 75% of all states are RTC, 43% of the worst being non-RTC makes these states over-represented at the unpleasant end. The five states with the lowest murder rate are RTC, but two of the five worst are non-RTC. The eleven states with the lowest robbery rate are RTC, but of the eleven worst, 5 are non-RTC. Nine of 10 states with the lowest assault rates are RTC, while 3 of 10 with the highest rates are non-RTC. The only exception is in rates of rape, where three of the 10 lowest are non-RTC, while only one non-RTC state is in the 10 worst.

Overall, non-RTC states average 27.8% higher violent crime rates, most notably 43.8% higher murder and 85% higher robbery rates, than RTC states

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England and Wales have the most stringent gun laws and the fastest increase of crime in the world

Gun Control's Twisted Outcome

Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.

Joyce Lee Malcolm | November 2002 Print Edition

Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people.

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The deeper I delve into the Gun Control controversy, the more I'm glad I live in a RTC state.

Id like to thank you guys for bringing this to my attention

Right to carry, and open carry.

I applaud your general decision, but I honestly think you should pick something better than any 9m/m, if you haven't already. The history of performance of the 9m/m Luger and it's various incarnations (.380ACP, 9x18, 9x19, 9x21, 9x23, 9m/m Makarov, et al) does not impress. Google <Martin Fackler> and you'll see - he was pretty much the authority on objective analysis of terminal ballistics. There are loads that the 9m/m can become useful with, but you can do so much better. Hell, even the .38 Special is better - and we passed over the .38 Special as being inferior (at the time) to the 9m/m Luger when the DoD type-accepted the .45ACP and M1911 pistol.

If you're after a wheelgun, or a dirt-simple sidearm, pick a smallish .357 Magnum. This will give you the option of using any .38 Special or .357 Magnum load at will. If you want an auto, the .40 S&W is markedly superior to the 9m/m - even with the JTC/FMJ "hardball" rounds. Although I do favour the .45ACP in the various 1911/1991 variants over all - unless I want something very heavy (at which point, I'll step up to the .44 Special/Magnum or larger.)

You can also check out sites like packing.org for information on travel with firearms (loaded or not, concealed or not,) as it's a good jumping-off point for research into the Armed American.

One thing I can't stress enough - before you decide to buy a sidearm for carry, find a range that rents various pistols, and spend a few days trying them out. I've long advocated rigorous training with a carry sidearm, but by trying them out before you actually buy one, you have a better idea of what's involved in handling various models and you can see what fits your hands and what fits your strength. When you're done shooting, see if the guy behind the counter will show you how to strip and clean it (most will) and that is a further element in your education. Not everyone needs to be able to strip their pistol blindfolded, hanging upside down, with their hands behind their back - but you should be able to do it almost automatically when you're looking at it. Again, revolvers are easier to clean - crane out the cylinder to get the chambers, brush out the barrel. You probably only have to strip and lube the lockwork every couple of years or so.

Feel free to ask if you have any other questions - there are plenty of us around here who have rather wide experience with firearms, and that's yet another tool you should make use of (especially since most gunners are ready and willing to teach the next generation :clap: )

google blackwolfccw.com I took my class with this guy. The classes are at his house and his prices are good.

KRAKER said:

google blackwolfccw.com I took my class with this guy. The classes are at his house and his prices are good.

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A little far away for me to travel, but thanks! ITs funny, even if I didnt plan to carry a gun Im statistically safer because many of you do

I looked into much of this as well when I got my permit. Most notable was Floriduh where crime was like 150% the national average. After 5 years of Shall-issue laws on the books, in spite of what the limp-wristed tulips warned of, crime went to 74% the national average.

More important was the number of permit holders who commited a crime after receiving the permit, the exact number escapes me but IIRC it was 4 people out of 85,000. Pretty low odds, and a pretty good bunch of people.

Anybody want to start a pool on how long it will take for Stump to get in here and start calling people "gun freaks"???

BruceB83 said:

Anybody want to start a pool on how long it will take for Stump to get in here and start calling people "gun freaks"???

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Probably not too long, but its hard to avoid the facts. Countries that have armed citizens have lower crime rates.

I guess if owning a Jeep makes me a jeep freak then the gun will go hand in hand

53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. That is the line that got me thinnking

BruceB83 said:

Anybody want to start a pool on how long it will take for Stump to get in here and start calling people "gun freaks"???

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I'm going to ask this just once. Gun threads were not in mind when i asked for this forum to be created, but i have no problems with them if kept cordial.

As one of the MODS in this forum i will nuke any thread or post that crosses that line. Treat others as you would like to be treated and we wont have problems.

Thanks...

John B said:

I'm going to ask this just once. Gun threads were not in mind when i asked for this forum to be created, but i have no problems with them if kept cordial.

As one of the MODS in this forum i will nuke any thread or post that crosses that line. Treat others as you would like to be treated and we wont have problems.

Thanks...

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So which one is it...??? I'm not being an a$$...just asking. And I completely agree with you.....nuke it like we should have nuked the Middle East!!!

DrMoab said:

We already have a gun forum.

Its called The Adventure Forum.

Guns were one thing it was intended for. If the off-topic mods would do their job, they would move those threads there.

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BruceB83 said:

So which one is it...??? I'm not being an a$$...just asking. And I completely agree with you.....nuke it like we should have nuked the Middle East!!!

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Like i said, it wasnt in my mind when i asked for this forum. There was a thread by Scrappy requesting feedback on the idea... some here requested guns be included within the perameters. Again, i have no problems with it... but i do ask we conduct ourselves as adults.


Now back to the original topic.

John B said:

Like i said, it wasnt in my mind when i asked for this forum. There was a thread by Scrappy requesting feedback on the idea... some here requested guns be included within the perameters. Again, i have no problems with it... but i do ask we conduct ourselves as adults.


Now back to the original topic.

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I dont see anyone not being an adult here, we tend to tease each other in every forum.

5-90 said:

Right to carry, and open carry.

I applaud your general decision, but I honestly think you should pick something better than any 9m/m, if you haven't already. The history of performance of the 9m/m Luger and it's various incarnations (.380ACP, 9x18, 9x19, 9x21, 9x23, 9m/m Makarov, et al) does not impress.

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x2 US military went to 9mm to standardize with NATO and there is talk about going back to .45ACP. Before anyone else jumps the gun and says: .45ACP isn't end all as one stop shot is a myth, I'll agree. Deal is that the .45ACP requires less rounds to stop then a 9mm. In a defensive situation that's what counts. Also there is a .40 (10mm short or FBI handicap ) that's probalby at this point most commonly used by law enforcement. Yes it's important to have a gun you can control and conceal if needed but any of the calibers I've mentioned can be easily concealed and controlled should the proper firearm be chosen.

If you're after a wheelgun, or a dirt-simple sidearm, pick a smallish .357 Magnum. This will give you the option of using any .38 Special or .357 Magnum load at will. If you want an auto, the .40 S&W is markedly superior to the 9m/m - even with the JTC/FMJ "hardball" rounds. Although I do favour the .45ACP in the various 1911/1991 variants over all - unless I want something very heavy (at which point, I'll step up to the .44 Special/Magnum or larger.)

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Looks like we're on the same page

One thing I can't stress enough - before you decide to buy a sidearm for carry, find a range that rents various pistols, and spend a few days trying them out. I've long advocated rigorous training with a carry sidearm, but by trying them out before you actually buy one, you have a better idea of what's involved in handling various models and you can see what fits your hands and what fits your strength.

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Group of us here in CA is helping a new shooter go through just that right now. Every so often one of us gets approached (either in passing casual conversation or someone refers a person) and since we hangout almost weekly at the range we bring enough armament to outfit a platoon and have them available to try out and discuss pros and cons of various firearms. Ask around: there's bound to be a group like that in your area. Also checkout www.defensivecarry.com .

Brian, look at the quote in my original reply. That is what i was responding to. I agree, thus far all conversation has been done in an adult manner... but we dont need to "invite" friction.

Teasing is one thing, blatant attacks as i'v seen in gun threads on the OT forum is another.

I'm a Vet, own guns, just want to see gun topics discussed in a civil manner. I dont think i'm asking for too much.

John B said:

Brian, look at the quote in my original reply. That is what i was responding to. I agree, thus far all conversation has been done in an adult manner... but we dont need to "invite" friction.

Teasing is one thing, blatant attacks as i'v seen in gun threads on the OT forum is another.

I'm a Vet, own guns, just want to see gun topics discussed in a civil manner. I dont think i'm asking for too much.

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civil manner.............now thats going too far! LOL, thanks John

My main objective is a side arm for Alice, that is easy to use and compact, and actually looking at a Makarov

we dont have any type of rental or shooting ranges here in Flagstaff area.

rockwerks said:

My main objective is a side arm for Alice, that is easy to use and compact, and actually looking at a Makarov

we dont have any type of rental or shooting ranges here in Flagstaff area.

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Hmmm in that case call up whoever does instructing for CCW and ask them about where you can try out some firearms. They might have an intro to firearms class or something in the area where various firearms are available to be tried out. Heck, if you were closer to me I'd say we can meetup someplace half way and hit the range.

John B said:

Brian, look at the quote in my original reply. That is what i was responding to. I agree, thus far all conversation has been done in an adult manner... but we dont need to "invite" friction.

Teasing is one thing, blatant attacks as i'v seen in gun threads on the OT forum is another.

I'm a Vet, own guns, just want to see gun topics discussed in a civil manner. I dont think i'm asking for too much.

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Dude...I wasn't "inviting friction"...lol...believe me, you don't have to invite him, I think he does searches for topics with "gun" in the subject and then seeks the people out and verbally bashes them. It's inevitable that the Stump finds the thread...that's all I was saying because we just got through about a week of constant gun bashing by Stump and him calling everybody a gun freak.

On topic, there is a town in here in GA that requires citizens or heads of households (of certain types) to keep at least 1 firearm in their house. It's Kennesaw, GA. Search "Kennesaw gun laws" in google and you can read about it. The law exempt those who conscientiously object to owning a firearm, convicted felons, those who cannot afford a firearm, and those with a mental or physical disability that would prevent them from owning a firearm. After the law was passed, the town saw a 89% decrease in residential burglary. Check it out, see what you guys think.

BruceB83 said:

On topic, there is a town in here in GA that requires citizens or heads of households (of certain types) to keep at least 1 firearm in their house. It's Kennesaw, GA. Search "Kennesaw gun laws" in google and you can read about it. The law exempt those who conscientiously object to owning a firearm, convicted felons, those who cannot afford a firearm, and those with a mental or physical disability that would prevent them from owning a firearm. After the law was passed, the town saw a 89% decrease in residential burglary. Check it out, see what you guys think.

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Yup, I read about that. IIRC after first two shootings (right after the law was passed) resulting in death of the BG in the first one and severe injury in the second one the forced entry bulgraries nearly immediately stopped.

Don't forget that in shall issue states, while the statistics show that gun related crimes drop significantly, petty crime rates increase.

Criminals are criminals regardless. If they're afraid of using guns because a citizen might shoot them, they'll turn to burglaries and other crimes to make a living.

With that being said, I'm a CCW license holder and I encourage everyone to do it.

packing.org was taken down a year ago because the owner went back to law school.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/ is a good resource.

Kejtar said:

x2 US military went to 9mm to standardize with NATO and there is talk about going back to .45ACP. Before anyone else jumps the gun and says: .45ACP isn't end all as one stop shot is a myth, I'll agree. Deal is that the .45ACP requires less rounds to stop then a 9mm. In a defensive situation that's what counts. Also there is a .40 (10mm short or FBI handicap ) that's probalby at this point most commonly used by law enforcement. Yes it's important to have a gun you can control and conceal if needed but any of the calibers I've mentioned can be easily concealed and controlled should the proper firearm be chosen.

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I know - but "what is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right." Y'ask me, a military sidearm should chamber just about the largest round that can be handled easily - ammo gets heavy, but I'd rather shoot someone once or twice than six or eight times, if it comes to it.

I'm not a huge fan of the .223/5.56x45m/m round for military work, either. The original AR concept was in .30-06, then in .308 - and that would have been fine. But, it was watered down into the 5.56x45, and that's pretty much the 9m/m of rifle rounds, when used with NATO ball.

Speaking of which, I seem to recall that we're not "strictly limited" to FMJ ball ammo under the Geneva Convention and the Hague Accords (and, by extension, the Law of Land Warfare) - I may have to check into that again. Going to a soft allow or a hollowpoint for greater energy transfer makes the 9m/m border on useful - ditto the 5.56x45m/m.

But, we're still better off just using a bigger pill.