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1997 Hesitates/Stutters within 1st Quarter mile then fine

XJFORJ

NAXJA Forum User
Location
DENVER
Hi All,

Been following NAXJA for years gleaning a wealth of knowledge --many thanks to all who post.

Problem: 1997 4.0 standard starts fine then about 400 yards down the road it hesitates/stutters for about 15 seconds then runs fine thereafter. Checked codes and received O2 sensor failure (up and downstream), replaced both, and still get same error codes.

Any ideas? Don't want to replace O2s again if not necessary.

Thanks, Jim
 
What Check Engine Light trouble code numbers are or were present ?

Did you install Bosch or parts store brand O2 sensors ?

Did you check the O2 sensor fuses ? Are the O2 sensor wire plugs corroded or have any pushed back wire pins ? Do the O2 sensor wires have any chafed or melted insulation ?
 
Hi,
Thanks for the reply.
I think the upstream was NGK and the downstream was a knockoff. Not certain of the codes as they were checked by an O'reilly employee who told me they were o2. Connections look fine...
Will try the ignition/odometer flash procedure tonight to make certain they are in fact o2 failure.
If I reset the ECU, it starts, runs for about 200 yds then stutters and throws an error, and if I punch the gas pedal, it lurches and then runs fine for the remainder of the trip (limp mode?).
I'll go through the entire diagnostics/connections/fuses again tonight.
Thanks, Jim
 
Buy, borrow or rent an OBD-II trouble code reader. I have a trouble code index that is 1000% better than a flashing dashboard light, or what the store guy reads from his device, or prints out inside the store.

From the very brief description of symptoms, it seems as if the ECU is not happy when it comes time to switch from stored data open loop operation to closed loop operation using the live OBD sensor data.
 
I will be most interested in what you find out and how you solve this. My '96 does something very similar, but no codes get thrown. If I let entirely off the gas and then get back on it everything is fine. It just does the one stutter and then it is good to go. It is not a real problem (at least not yet) so I haven't pursued it. It sounds like yours is a real problem (since you get codes). Please let us know what you find as you work this out.
 
Thanks All,

Good call -- time to get an OBD-II.
How can I consider myself a consummate DIY mechanic without one? :^)
Going after it today -- xj day -- along with window washer pumps and vacuum trace (?) for intermittent AC/Heater air flow.
Will post any progress...

Jim

Happiest Mod?
Explorer Rear Hatch Struts
Can almost do pull-ups on open hatch! :^)
 
www.pacificcoastmanuals.com for genuine Jeep Service Manual. A basic trouble code reader is useful, a mid grade code reader with live data, or a smart phone App is better.
 
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My '96 does something very similar, but no codes get thrown. If I let entirely off the gas and then get back on it everything is fine. It just does the one stutter and then it is good to go.

What sensor testing has been performed ? O2 sensors have a service life of about 100,000 miles. Does a basic visual inspection and continuity testing of the OBD sensor wire harnesses and wire plugs find any corrosion, pushed back or bent wire plug pins, loose connections, failed wire splices, or any chafed/melted wire insulation ?
 
Hey Tim,

Ordered an OBDII to be delivered next week so went back to O'R and read, again: O2. Pursuing the circuits after lunch..

Spoke with lokes who said it may be injectors, partially clogged, and when warm, open up. They also said O2 errors may not be indicative of the underlying problem. Mentioned Seafoam... Never used it, but I guess it cannot (?) hurt.

So, after circuitry, will run injection cleaner. Side thought: Time for Dodge Neon injector upgrade?
 
No harm in a can of injection cleaner into the gas tank. Proper diagnostics requires data, the minimum data being a CEL trouble code that relates to the symptoms observed. The OBD engine sensors and their wire circuits can be tested with a volts/ohms multi-meter.

I would start with the O2 sensors and their fuses. Confirm that they are not Bosch, and preferably are NGK/NTK. Confirm they are functioning correctly.

1991-2001 HO

The O2 Sensor is also the main sensing element for the Catalyst and Fuel Monitors. The O2 Sensor can fail in any or all of the following manners:
  • slow response rate
  • reduced output voltage
  • dynamic shift
  • shorted or open circuits

Response rate is the time required for the sensor to switch from lean to rich once it is exposed to a richer than optimum A/F mixture or vice versa. As the sensor starts malfunctioning, it could take longer to detect the changes in the oxygen content of the exhaust gas.

The output voltage of the O2 sensor ranges from 0 to 1 volt. A good sensor can easily generate any output voltage in this range as it is exposed to different concentrations of oxygen. To detect a shift in the A/F mixture (lean or rich), the output voltage has to change beyond a threshold value. A malfunctioning sensor could have difficulty changing beyond the threshold value.

For the HO years, 91-02, the O2 sensor has 4 wires. One wire is the 12-14 volt power that comes from the O2 sensor heater relay on the passenger side firewall (unless they moved them in later years to the relay & fuse boxes?), and that powers the internal heater in the sensor so that the sensor can work at idle, and almost immedietly after start up. Loss of that power will hurt gas mileage even with a good O2 sensor.

Two black wires are grounds for the heater power and O2 signal to the ECU. A poor ground will limit current to the O2 sensors heater or cause an error in the O2 sensor output voltage read by the PCM (ECU) causing poor mileage even with a good O2 sensor. Test the 2 ground wires with power off. Test between the wire end at the sensor and the battery negative ground post. It should read less than 1 ohm.

The last wire, #4, is a signal feed wire, 0-1 volts, from the O2 sensor to the PCM (ECU) sensor. The O2 sensor is an O2 concentration sensitive variable voltage generator. At optimal O2 concentration the O2 sensor puts out 0.45 volts.

At idle that voltage should read 0.1-0.9 volts oscillating quickly back and forth roughly once every second. At 2000 rpm it should run between 0.4 and 0.5 volts max (in park). A digital meter can NOT be used for reading the O2 sensor voltage, but it can be used to test the grounds and the 12-14 volts to the heater. You must use an old style analog meter with the needle gauge on the display to see the voltage swing back and forth.

If the O2 sensor readings are not right, say they read .1 volts or .8 volts steady, you have a problem. BUT before you blame the O2 sensor make sure it has good wiring, and make sure the proper voltage is feeding it, by turning power on, engine off to read the engine off voltage feeds (12-14 on one, and ensure the ground wires (power off) reads less than 1 ohm to the battery negative post.

If any one of the grounds or the O2 sensor to ECU/PCM wires reads a high voltage chances are the wiring harness is damaged and the 12-14 volts for the O2 sensor heater is getting through a bad spot in the wires insulation and contacting a ground wire or the O2 sensor wire feed to the ECU/PCM. This is not the O2 sensors fault, but a wiring problem.


A leaky exhaust system or leaky fuel injector(s), or bad compression or leaky valves, bad plugs, wires, cap, rotor, HV coil, and so on, or combination of these, can also cause a lean or rich condition that gives you high or low O2 sensor readings that are not the O2 sensors fault, so try and verify those other items also before buying parts like an O2 sensor to fix your problem.
 
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Thanks Tim,
WooHoo...that's a lesson in electrical engineering!
I have both digital and analog meters so time to crunch a few numbers.
And I thought debugging code was tough... :^)
 
it is either your upstream O2 or your wiring to your upstream O2

i had same issue, will only do it once per start cycle then run fine for hours on end. mine had no code till it finally went to pot all together, and when it did it was almost undriveable. make sure you are using quality O2 sensors for replacement, not sure what brand, but do a search on here for brand recomendations on O2 sensors.
 
Thanks,

Multimeter malfunctioning so ordered another.
Hope to have the OBDII and multi today. Upon arrival, will go after the upstream first.

Meantime decided to run BG 44K through the fuel system -- never been cleaned @ 175k miles. Also, checking local JYs for Neon injectors... (upgrade fun?!!)

Will update when I get my diagnostics equipment and pursue...

Now, need to search the forum for a 3-way switch mod for the electric fan override. Had the circuit fail wide open a while ago and drained the battery while attending an event. That was a pain in the rain trying to find a jump! Now suffering from electrofanphobia! :^)

Jim
 
No harm in a can of injection cleaner into the gas tank. Proper diagnostics requires data, the minimum data being a CEL trouble code that relates to the symptoms observed. The OBD engine sensors and their wire circuits can be tested with a volts/ohms multi-meter.

I would start with the O2 sensors and their fuses. Confirm that they are not Bosch, and preferably are NGK/NTK. Confirm they are functioning correctly.

1991-2001 HO

The O2 Sensor is also the main sensing element for the Catalyst and Fuel Monitors. The O2 Sensor can fail in any or all of the following manners:
  • slow response rate
  • reduced output voltage
  • dynamic shift
  • shorted or open circuits

Response rate is the time required for the sensor to switch from lean to rich once it is exposed to a richer than optimum A/F mixture or vice versa. As the sensor starts malfunctioning, it could take longer to detect the changes in the oxygen content of the exhaust gas.

The output voltage of the O2 sensor ranges from 0 to 1 volt. A good sensor can easily generate any output voltage in this range as it is exposed to different concentrations of oxygen. To detect a shift in the A/F mixture (lean or rich), the output voltage has to change beyond a threshold value. A malfunctioning sensor could have difficulty changing beyond the threshold value.

For the HO years, 91-02, the O2 sensor has 4 wires. One wire is the 12-14 volt power that comes from the O2 sensor heater relay on the passenger side firewall (unless they moved them in later years to the relay & fuse boxes?), and that powers the internal heater in the sensor so that the sensor can work at idle, and almost immedietly after start up. Loss of that power will hurt gas mileage even with a good O2 sensor.

Two black wires are grounds for the heater power and O2 signal to the ECU. A poor ground will limit current to the O2 sensors heater or cause an error in the O2 sensor output voltage read by the PCM (ECU) causing poor mileage even with a good O2 sensor. Test the 2 ground wires with power off. Test between the wire end at the sensor and the battery negative ground post. It should read less than 1 ohm.

The last wire, #4, is a signal feed wire, 0-1 volts, from the O2 sensor to the PCM (ECU) sensor. The O2 sensor is an O2 concentration sensitive variable voltage generator. At optimal O2 concentration the O2 sensor puts out 0.45 volts.

At idle that voltage should read 0.1-0.9 volts oscillating quickly back and forth roughly once every second. At 2000 rpm it should run between 0.4 and 0.5 volts max (in park). A digital meter can NOT be used for reading the O2 sensor voltage, but it can be used to test the grounds and the 12-14 volts to the heater. You must use an old style analog meter with the needle gauge on the display to see the voltage swing back and forth.

If the O2 sensor readings are not right, say they read .1 volts or .8 volts steady, you have a problem. BUT before you blame the O2 sensor make sure it has good wiring, and make sure the proper voltage is feeding it, by turning power on, engine off to read the engine off voltage feeds (12-14 on one, and ensure the ground wires (power off) reads less than 1 ohm to the battery negative post.

If any one of the grounds or the O2 sensor to ECU/PCM wires reads a high voltage chances are the wiring harness is damaged and the 12-14 volts for the O2 sensor heater is getting through a bad spot in the wires insulation and contacting a ground wire or the O2 sensor wire feed to the ECU/PCM. This is not the O2 sensors fault, but a wiring problem.


A leaky exhaust system or leaky fuel injector(s), or bad compression or leaky valves, bad plugs, wires, cap, rotor, HV coil, and so on, or combination of these, can also cause a lean or rich condition that gives you high or low O2 sensor readings that are not the O2 sensors fault, so try and verify those other items also before buying parts like an O2 sensor to fix your problem.

Wow buddy, you're damn scientist, Thanks for the info/post:thumbup:
 
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