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  #1  
Old November 9th, 2004, 08:42
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Lawn Cher' Lawn Cher' is offline
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Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

We all know about the generally poor design choices Jeep has made for its future products (except for the TJ-based variations,) but Land Rover seems to be in the same boat. I just read up on the new LR3, which replaces the Discovery... it is longer, unibody built, has 4-wheel independent suspension, and comes with 60-series tires on 19" rims. I don't see how this new vehicle significantly differentiates itself from the Range Rover. Add that to their silly little Freelander, and I see yet another diluted 4x4 brand that has sold out to the soccer-mom (or would it be polo-mom in this case?)

The Hummer H3 doesn't seem like anything to write home about either... GM has taken the plasticky look of the H2 and repackaged it into a smaller, lighter offering that will prove just as fake and underpowered as the larger version.

My conclusion... I think I will be satisfied with used vehicles from here on in since nobody makes anything interesting anymore.
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  #2  
Old November 9th, 2004, 08:52
BajaXJ92 BajaXJ92 is offline
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

blah blah.

Enjoy your jeep.

We all know where the future is headed for Jeep.

They're hanging on by a thread with the rubicon and rubicon unlimited.

Nice to know there are still a few enthusiast that work for Jeep.

This thread screams D i l l holesque.
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  #3  
Old November 9th, 2004, 08:57
Beezil Beezil is offline
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

I hope stock vehicles continue to become less capable.

some people don't belong in the backcountry, especially the ones who attempt to emulate thier favorite SUV commercial.
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  #4  
Old November 9th, 2004, 08:59
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

toyota still puts out a fairly capable offroader and so does nissan. all they require is a sas and i would gladly wheel in one. i work at a land rover dealer and they are soon to be making an "offroad course" for people to test drive these things on. i just hope they'll let me show em up in my jeep.
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  #5  
Old November 9th, 2004, 09:02
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajaXJ92
This thread screams D i l l holesque.
D i l l had a point, just wouldn't accept there was noting to be done about it. I partially agreed with him, but maintain a sense of rationality. Have I suggested a march on DC HQ? Didn't think so.

My purpose here was to point out yet another nail in the coffin for the idea of the true 4wd utility vehicle that we appreciate in our XJ's & MJ's.

Good day.
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  #6  
Old November 9th, 2004, 09:06
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Re: Contindang the downwarD,sphral`f 4x4 csign

[QUOTE=RamsDp]toyota still puts out a fairly capable offroader and so does nissan. `l theyveqtire@hs ` sa2Y/QUOTE]

Rigr. Eas( as rotuing tires, eh? Whatever happened to having something good directlx frm the factory? Phe TJ Fari`tioNq sdem dh bd abpt the dly thing left.
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  #7  
Old November 9th, 2004, 09:36
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
I think I will be satisfied with used vehicles from here on in since nobody makes anything interesting anymore.
My felings exactly. XJs will be around for most of my life.

I would however like to say that this trend in the 4X4 market confuses me. DC (as well as most other SUV builders) changes their 4X4s to be more user friendly, that is more road worthy. However when DC built the XJ and the solid front axle Grands, soccor moms and yuppies bought them. They apparently never had a problem with the road worthieness then, so why is it necessary to switch everything to IFS now?

I think its great that the Wrangler is a capable wheeler right off the showroom floor, but how many of us actually wheel our rigs as they came from the factory? Not many, part of the fun of wheeling is finding your rigs shortcommings and making them better. However, the curent problem is that none of the newer 4X4s are even modification friendly, with IFS you can lift but the IFS still hangs way down like a brick wall just waiting to get caught in the mud, and how many tight trails can you actually fit an H2 on?

I see why car makers are changing, they have to appeal to the biggest audience. I'm just saying that XJs appealed to a huge audience (not many vehicles make 17 year runs viturally unchanged) and so did the solid axle grands. People bought them because they wanted a Jeep, and while that may have meant a slightly harsher ride, they accecpted that, ands if they didn't they bought something else.

DC changed the Grand Cherokee to give the people what they (DC) thought they wanted, but did they really achieve that?

People that bought (and were loyal) to Jeeps, bought them for a reason, and if those reasons die, our loyalty may just die along with it.
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  #8  
Old November 9th, 2004, 10:27
bchulett bchulett is offline
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepguy97
I would however like to say that this trend in the 4X4 market confuses me. DC (as well as most other SUV builders) changes their 4X4s to be more user friendly, that is more road worthy.
Probably has more to do with economics and rollover liability. The user friendly and road worthy concept was an outgrowth of lawsuits. The BIG three learn from each others experiences (Ford Explorer) ... and will follow the trends in vehicle design and safety.

And when they do design a new vehicle ... mfg cost, service cost, crash test results and sales forecast are major factors in order to compete in a particular segment. I wouldn't count on the "enthusiast" factor in today's design criteria---unless of course you're redesigning a Mustang or TJ.

Why do you think they kept the live axle on the new Mustang ?

The old drag racer enthusiasts demanded it... there's a huge Boomer market out there with lots of money to spend on stuff they couldn't afford when they were younger. And that will provide the direction on what comes out of the BIG three over the next decade.

The problem with DC is their R&D budget is stretched too thin.
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  #9  
Old November 9th, 2004, 10:46
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by bchulett
The problem with DC is their R&D budget is stretched too thin.
The problem with DC is being too concerned with short-term goals and not concerned about the long-term effects of diluting the brand. People buy Jeeps because they are Jeeps. The marque carries a connotation of durability, versatility, and off-road capability. DaimlerChrysler wants to cash in on the name but not provide the goods. That can only work for awhile ... until people catch on that the vehicles being sold under the Jeep name don't provide the attributes for which Jeep has been famous. Once word spreads, sales will take a tumble.

The saddest thing is that once a reputation has been destroyed, it takes a lot longer to rebuild it than it does to knock it down.

DCX is not alone in this. Winchester is doing the same thing. Awhile ago I saw in Wal-Mart a "Winchester" lever action, cowboy style BB gun made by Daisy. I have a Colt BB pistol that's in the same style is the famous Colt 1911 military pistol, and the BB gun is just as nice as the real thing. Made in Germany for Colt, all metal, heavy, a quality piece of work. In contrast, the Daisy "Winchester" is all plastic. I guess there's a thin metal tube inside the barrel, but the outer barrel is plastic, the receiver is plastic, the lever is plastic, and the wood stock and forearm are some unidentified species that only vaguely resembles "wood." The thing was such a piece of junk I returned it the next day.

Now I see Wal-Mart selling "Winchester" knives -- made in China exclusively for Wal-Mart. Looks like about the end of the line for the Winchester brand.

A few years ago Winchester was still selling a version of the .22 my grandfather taught me to shoot with. They wanted $800 for it. They recently sold the rights to that rifle to Taurus, who builds it in Brazil. From what I've heard, the Taurus version is better made and more accurate than the Winchester, and sells for $300.
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  #10  
Old November 9th, 2004, 11:05
Beezil Beezil is offline
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle

DCX is not alone in this. Winchester is doing the same thing. Awhile ago I saw in Wal-Mart a "Winchester" lever action, cowboy style BB gun made by Daisy. I have a Colt BB pistol that's in the same style is the famous Colt 1911 military pistol, and the BB gun is just as nice as the real thing. Made in Germany for Colt, all metal, heavy, a quality piece of work. In contrast, the Daisy "Winchester" is all plastic. I guess there's a thin metal tube inside the barrel, but the outer barrel is plastic, the receiver is plastic, the lever is plastic, and the wood stock and forearm are some unidentified species that only vaguely resembles "wood." The thing was such a piece of junk I returned it the next day.

Now I see Wal-Mart selling "Winchester" knives -- made in China exclusively for Wal-Mart. Looks like about the end of the line for the Winchester brand.

A few years ago Winchester was still selling a version of the .22 my grandfather taught me to shoot with. They wanted $800 for it. They recently sold the rights to that rifle to Taurus, who builds it in Brazil. From what I've heard, the Taurus version is better made and more accurate than the Winchester, and sells for $300.
buying firearms from walmart is unamerican and white-trash.
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  #11  
Old November 9th, 2004, 11:12
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramsey
toyota still puts out a fairly capable offroader and so does nissan. all they require is a sas and i would gladly wheel in one. i work at a land rover dealer and they are soon to be making an "offroad course" for people to test drive these things on. i just hope they'll let me show em up in my jeep.
Whats the big deal about that, the way their headed that just means adding taller speed bumps in the parking lot and pushing the asphalt down so the water puddles are over an inch deep...
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  #12  
Old November 9th, 2004, 11:23
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichP
Whats the big deal about that, the way their headed that just means adding taller speed bumps in the parking lot and pushing the asphalt down so the water puddles are over an inch deep...
yeah thats about right probably, of course the air ride is kinda fun to play with. they did take a bunch of rovers on a trip to barnwell mountain. there are pictures i have yet to see. if i can find some carnage ones i will post em up. i am sure they just ran the access trails and thought they were hot shit
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  #13  
Old November 9th, 2004, 12:32
bchulett bchulett is offline
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle
The problem with DC is being too concerned with short-term goals and not concerned about the long-term effects of diluting the brand. People buy Jeeps because they are Jeeps. The marque carries a connotation of durability, versatility, and off-road capability. DaimlerChrysler wants to cash in on the name but not provide the goods. That can only work for awhile ... until people catch on that the vehicles being sold under the Jeep name don't provide the attributes for which Jeep has been famous. Once word spreads, sales will take a tumble.

The saddest thing is that once a reputation has been destroyed, it takes a lot longer to rebuild it than it does to knock it down.

DCX is not alone in this. [EDIT]
I agree 100%.... during the 90's Wall Street encouraged short-term thinking by setting the bar way too high on a broad scale. In order to woo investors and meet financial goals, CEO's would sell their corporate souls to achieve quarter and year-end targets. They pretty much had to do whatever it took to meet investor expectations and assure they received their stock options and bonuses... hence we get globalization.

Unfortunately many highly recognized brand names that we assoicate with American tradition, quality, durability, integrity and values has suffered as a result.

I'm fortunate to work for one that hasen't sold out yet.

Last edited by bchulett; November 9th, 2004 at 13:08. Reason: Okay Soul .. just ruined my speech.
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  #14  
Old November 9th, 2004, 12:57
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by bchulett
CEO's would sell their corporate soles to achieve quarter and year-end targets.
He-he....corporate "soles"
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  #15  
Old November 9th, 2004, 13:29
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Re: Continuing the downward spiral of 4x4 design

Quote:
Originally Posted by bchulett
I'm fortunate to work for one that hasen't sold out yet.
which would that be?
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