Sideways slide Q's....

Not sure what the correct term for this slide is but basicly you get the vehicle to go sideways and when exiting the corner the vehicle is pointed straight, baja, ralley racing, ect. Basicly I would like to know from the guys that race, how stable is the vehicle during this manuaver? Of course this is very subjuctive but I would like to get a better feel for this type of slide, but not really keen on rolling the vehicle. And of course safety, I'm trying this stuff on gravel/sand farm roads. Is the vehicle fairly stable or on the edge of going over if it hits something? The reason I'm asking here is hopfully those that race lifted XJ's can give me some insight. My XJ is at 5" of lift and 31's.

Drifting?

maybe, I thought it had a name like J hook or S hook turn.

Hey Weasel,
From my experience there are two ways to slide around a turn, the CORR technique and then the classic rally turn, what you are describing sounds more like the rally turn.

For the most part the CORR way is scrub a lot of speed prior to the turn then romp on the go peddle to get the ass end to the outside of the turn (similar to dirt oval track racing). I consider this almost backing into the turn and using the engine to push the vehicle around the turn. This is why you see so many trucks who use this technique running 800 hp, they need it to make tight fast turns.

The classic rally turn is a little trickier, it's based on momentum and the transfer of weight between the 4 corners of the vehicle. In comparison to the CORR technique the vehicle enters the turn carrying a lot more speed. In short the vehicle slides just enough to deflect and redirect momentum by transferring weight to the front or rear, more ground force equates to more traction. Weight to the front caused by lifting on the throttle or applying the brake will cause the nose to turn in. Easing into the throttle will straighten out the turn. This sounds like what you were asking about.

Ever since I've learned how to do it I can't think of a better rush then entering a tight slippy turn faster then most people would enter it on dry pavement with only trees to catch you if you make a mistake. But if you do it right even a severely underpowered vehicle can carry just as much or more speed exiting the turn as a high horse-powered CORR truck but going over is a major concern even for the low rally cars.

A farm with packed gravel with sand sounds like a perfect environment to practice on, what are you looking to do? Obviously the tires and suspension play a big part on how all of this works for you or against you.

if the just the rear is sliding, it is called oversteer, if all 4 wheel are sliding, it is called 4 wheel drift. if the front wheels arre sliding, understeer.

kreature,

The ralley slide is what I'm talking about. You steer into the turn, then out and then back in and it transfers the weight just like you where saying. You carry alot of speed right on through. I'm just looking to pratice. I love running fireroads/farm roads real fast and would like it run baja stuff some day so more or less practicing different techniques. And your right, it's the best feeling. Thanks for the info on the brake and gas, I'll remember that as it seems it would have an effect on controling the slide of the rig in the corner. It seems to me that if done right the weight will shift to the correc tplace and keep the vehicle going forward and not top up.

For my suspension and tires I took the baja racing into account when peiceing by lift together. I have Bilstein's all the way around, stiffer rancho coils and stiffer tomken leaves to handle the high speed stuff better and my tire a Parnelli Jones which I think would be good for racing due to his legacy.

One pice of advice, keep the sway bar on when practicing. The nose will dive under braking and turn-in really badly without the sway bar attached.

CRASH

Weasel said:

kreature,

The ralley slide is what I'm talking about. You steer into the turn, then out and then back in and it transfers the weight just like you where saying. You carry alot of speed right on through. I'm just looking to pratice. I love running fireroads/farm roads real fast and would like it run baja stuff some day so more or less practicing different techniques. And your right, it's the best feeling. Thanks for the info on the brake and gas, I'll remember that as it seems it would have an effect on controling the slide of the rig in the corner. It seems to me that if done right the weight will shift to the correc tplace and keep the vehicle going forward and not top up.

For my suspension and tires I took the baja racing into account when peiceing by lift together. I have Bilstein's all the way around, stiffer rancho coils and stiffer tomken leaves to handle the high speed stuff better and my tire a Parnelli Jones which I think would be good for racing due to his legacy.

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CRASH said:

One pice of advice, keep the sway bar on when practicing. The nose will dive under braking and turn-in really badly without the sway bar attached.

CRASH

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The presence of front anti-sway bars (with low bar resistance rates) is one reason the "CORR" method has gained some favor during endurance off-road racing.

The turn-in (axle steer). Dive is to be expected with the long travel, even if it can be countered with dampening, and hooking up the stock anti-sway bar limits the travel (how it prevents the axle steer). Limiting travel when long travel helps the vehicle at speed is not always the best solution (but it is a solution for the street and flat courses, and when the bar has long control arms).

Braking in the straight, before entering a rough terrain turn (the CORR method), limits the speed where the high roll axis of the suspension can make the vehicle unstable in a corner. It minimizes the risk of a high-side rollover with the suspension tucking under the chassis. In a CORR race the time is limited, so a single rollover can lose the race. Most teams believe the risk and the potential for additonal speed from a rally turn is not worth the DNF (with or without an anti-sway bar).

The difficulty of keeping the anti-sway bar in Baja style endurance races is that the races are very long, long enough that the speed you may gain in a corner with the bar on flat corners is easily made up on the straight sections where the wheel travel helps. You also do not have the luxury of flat corners. The corners are typically rutted sand washes and unmaintained backroads riddled with crossgrain ruts and whoops, both waiting to catch the swaybar equipped vehicle roll axis above the CG, with minimal roll compliance to allow a driver the chance to check the rollover with steering. The ride compliance without the bar's added chassis roll resistance is improved enough on the straights, and rough corners, to eliminate it's advantage over the length of the race.

If you do catch an edge on a fast corner, and rollover (everyone does now and then), the time lost can be gained back over the next few hundred miles.

I do not want to claim that a rally drift style turn is not found in Baja racing, because the fast drivers are good enough to drift a truck with over two feet of wheel travel at each corner in a flat turn (without anti-sway bars). They use both methods of beating a turn, although the number of fast corners is limited (by terrain and course layout) so it's not as important to carry speed into a corner as in a Rally race (or even CORR style racing).

Happy Trails!

Excellent Info. Thanks The ralley slide will probably work better for me since I don't have lots of power on tap until my regear.

On thing I have noticed when I try to do the Corr turn (powerslide?) is that the rear end starts to roll towards the outside ahead of the suspension and can cause the rear end to skip or roll back sharply when exiting corner. This may be due to no rear sway bar?

As for front sway bars, I run them when doing all this pre running. I've tried it without them and there is just too much body roll in the corners. Eventually I will be trying a cab adjustable/release for more swaybar control with high speed.

Speed bumps are smooth at two speeds, 5 mph and 50 mph, I prefer the latter. I do admire the capability of long travel suspensions and tried to get as much wheel travel as possible (practical) while maintaining maneuverability. I started practicing at my friends farm in upstate NY where I also test suspension setups on a very fast jump (60 - 70 mph... oh the horror!) Anyway I'm at about 3" lift but plan to get some progressive coils and drop it to about 1.5" lift however it still achieves 10" front travel and 12" rear, ride height is about in the center of travel (same distance bump as drop).

I've experimented with Addco front and rear swaybars and use links that don't limit wheel travel. Over high speed jumps the Addco's as well as good shocks make the jumps nice and stable. If you're loose after a jump things will go bad FAST! I race in the SCCA RallyCross and find that running the front Addco sway REALLY helps plant the wheels and results in very responsive and predictable handling. The rear swaybar is good for high speeds but can be a pain during very tight turns (under 30 mph) as you have to work to get the rear to slide right.

Oh as for going over.
The local SCCA guys have been very cool letting XJ's run but we gave them our word we would do everything possible to prevent a roll. Remember there are spectators just a few feet off the course. For the rally slide a very strong sidewall is important, the typical off road tire can grab a rock and toss the vehicle over whereas the hard rally tire will glance off the top and provides a smoother slide. Since rally tires are usually small I've been looking into load range "E" tires that can offer the same support as a rally tire but so far it's just an idea.

Would it help to air-up the tires? That might stiffen the sidewalls without losing much traction (only on gravel).

around here we always just called that...driving
air up the tires(mainly the rears) it will help to lose traction

On flat moderate speed corners (dirt road) I´ve had pretty good results (242 part time) using the hand brake. It works like a combo of power slide and drift. Bias to the front for traction. The rears get light (without the nose dive) and the rear automatically starts to slide the oposite direction the steering wheel is turning. Or in other words, you have to point the front, before you hit the hand brake, then hit the gas, almost simultaniously.
With a little practice you can use the technique to line up the front, before the curve, for a power out, of the curve. Works some better than the jerk and steer technique, especially on uneven roads, in a high COG vehicle.
Got to remeber not to overdo it, just a pop with the hand brake, removing the locking button, can help prevent catastrophy.
I occasionally do pursuits (game warden), I´m looking at a heavier rear sway bar.
Piece of advice, stay in the ruts and away from the berm (or ditch). And remember, driving an unknown road, fast, is asking for it. My mind is constantly jumping from one escape route to the next, even on roads that I know well. Better to take a cross country jaunt, in a straight line, than catch a tire at the wrong angle.

Well rally driving, drifting, and good-ol'-boy-Dukes-of-Hazzard driving all have different names for different techniques.

Understeer (plow, push, tight) and oversteer (loose) are the basic terms. Learn them first.

If you have both at the same time you have a four wheel drift.

A 'Scandinavian Flick' is the classic Rally turn.

Wait...just read this?:
http://www.epinions.com/content_3136004228

Other advanced terms include Rockford, J-turn, chain drifting, etc. I find it amusing that the NASCAR fans hate import drifters, and don't care for WRX/EVO owners who are rally fans. They should imbrace motorsports that share the love of driving sideways, like the moonshiners that started stock car racing. A modern day moonshiner would choose an EVO or STi...or wind up in jail.

The only problem I see with using the handbrake is that you loose wheel momentum and speed and have to ragain it as soon as you let off slowing you down. I realize this probably doesn't make much difference in anything but racing though.

As far as air pressure I don't air them up really high because the help absorb some of the impacts on the road but it's been something I have been keeping in mind. Baja racers run failry low pressure's 17-25 lbs but they also are running beadlocks.

Yes, knowing the roads really help and even then things can get hairy fast. Thanks for the link.

aspera said:

I find it amusing that the NASCAR fans hate import drifters, and don't care for WRX/EVO owners who are rally fans. They should imbrace motorsports that share the love of driving sideways, like the moonshiners that started stock car racing. A modern day moonshiner would choose an EVO or STi...or wind up in jail.

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I totally agree, rally racing is the rebel sport of today. Personally I'd prefer an event where vehicles race from one side of a mountain/forrest to the other using only poorly maintained 4-wheeler trails, jumping downed logs and flying sideways just inches from trees on either side. I love everything about rally racing but the roads are too smooth for my taste. I like getting airborne and the XJ is very well suited (with some modifications) for the gravity defying arts!

I asked the seasoned rally racers about the handbrake and the general consensus was to omit the handbrake and open center diff in favor of greater traction from a locked t-case as the handbrake is usually only used to help swing the rear around slow hairpin turns. I have seen A LOT of torn tires from low air pressure. Most rally racers run 35 to 45+ PSI but it's totally dependent on the type of tires, the spring rates used and the course conditions. A soft tire will provide little sideways strength and will grab rocks and roots causing a possible roll rather than glancing off the top.

Just thinking out loud, if I were building for a back woods hell ride, racing down 4-wheeler trails with several fast sections, I'd start with Goodyear MTR's 245/75PR16 load range "E" and start around 35 - 40 PSI. I'd prefer to use the suspension's travel and save the rims rather then let the tires compress.

I'll have to try bumping the pressure up. I've had mine at 45-50 from when the tire shop mounted them and it was very squirrly. I'll try a few more pounds and see what happens. My PJ's are supost to be 6ply rated and have pretty thick and stiff sidewalls. They also make a 33x12.5x17E that probably would be good to run.

I forgot to mention that they overlooked 'corner hooking'. Corner hooking has nothing to do with the world's oldest profession (that I'm aware of). Corner hooking is when you hook the inside edge of the road with your tire(s). If done correctly, you (1) lean the car INTO the curve and (2) corner like you are on rails...because you nearly are.

If you do it wrong... :nosmile:

The guys are right about the handbrake thing, it´s been mostly abandoned by the rally drivers, but then again the cars have improved. Now they generally jerk left steer right (or vise versa) to get the rear light or induce some oversteer (loose/fast). Might be a technique that will work with an XJ, though I think the wieght and wieght to power ratio, would negate most of the benefits.
Back in the 80´s I set up a Dodge shortbed for road/rally type racing (kind of a nimble water buffalo). 255/60 tires, heavy sway bars front and rear, double shocked the front, with road shocks (slightly biased to slow compression). I raised the rear a couple of inches, so all four would break traction at pretty much the same time on a moderate curve. When I set up the pick-up, it was mostly as a sleeper or just something to drive the purests crazy. But in the end, was pleasantly surpirsed (concidering the wieght) just how good it worked. Paxton supercharged 318.
Not wanting to lower the front in an XJ, I´d raise the rear a little, to induce some oversteer, probably add a stiffer rear sway bar and add some camber to the front (top adjustable ball joint). The way the suspension works on the Xj, the push seems to get worse, the tighter the turn. Would take some experimenting, but slightly toe out and a little added camber, would probably help deal with some of the push, as would a cross front frame stiffener. 16" rims and 60 series tires would probably also help some.
Many of the techniques that work at high speeds on the pavement, work at moderate speeds in the dirt.
At best though, it would probably be a compromise, not a pure anything, but capable on most off and on road situations. The Germans like to widen the track for the road.
Most of what I have to deal with, is 30-40 MPH over rutted roads, with constant lefts and rights to follow the property lines. An occasional jaunt through a hay field, ditch or mud hole. An occasional high speed run, on two lane country roads.

8Mud said:

...add some camber to the front (top adjustable ball joint). The way the suspension works on the Xj, the push seems to get worse, the tighter the turn. Would take some experimenting, but slightly toe out and a little added camber, would probably help deal with some of the push, as would a cross front frame stiffener. 16" rims and 60 series tires would probably also help some.

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Oh that's a question I was going to ask the rally guys, what's a good Camber setting for rally racing? I've noticed some cars the tire was leaning in so far that it looked like they had a broken ball joint (but it was a front wheel drive VW). Also does the solid front axle change the need for less/more Camber?

You're probably right about the frame stiffener, when I replaced the stock motor mounts with HD polly I noticed the front end tighten up with less drift. BTW: I've found that the rear of the XJ will come around nice by decreasing the rear swaybar and increasing the front, also increasing rear tire pressure helps to float the rear but you will start loosing traction.