Project Scope Creep (alfred): Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

I ordered some stiffeners thinking that would be a good project for the Thanksgiving Holiday. At the very least I figured I would get the fronts in. Ha!! Jeep is still on jackstands with no front axle in sight.

It started with the non-stock hardware chosen for the lower trackbar mount. I suspect whoever put it in had a special wrench with a non-standard offset. I can't get anything on it or wedged between it and the axle.

No big deal. That was just the tipping point that convinced me now is also the time to swap in the axles from the Jeep I bought for its axles. D44/D30 with 4.10s and ARBs.

Of course that opens up a new can of worms. The "new" D30 is pretty clearly leaking out the axle seals at both sides. Both lower inner Cs had nice thick pools of oil filled sand. Yippee.

Trying to research what I am in for I am getting conflicting information regarding removing and replacing the ARB. Some posts indicate that a case spreader is required, others no. I can't find anything that demonstrates how one is right and the other wrong. Where is the dividing line between these two perspectives?

Additionally, everything I have read about pulling out and replacing a carrier revolves around the stock carrier. What do I need to know about the ARB? Where are the safe places to leverage against it and beat on it? Where not to?

Anything else important that is not likely to show up in a thread about a stock carrier?

And on a tangentially related subject, I noticed that this "new" axle does not have the plastic dust shields (or whatever they are supposed to be) at the point where the axle shafts enter the inner Cs. My old axle has some plastic flanges there. I suspect they were left out because they would not fit the shafts on this new axle. These shafts are machined differently, I am guessing they are aftermarket. I am wondering if the lack of that bit of protection has anything to do with the failure of the seals and if I should be looking for some sort of replacement.

And if I am going to be going ahead and tearing everything out of this axle does that make this a good time to slap on a truss? And if yes, does the truss get welded on before pulling anything out? Or while everything is out?

At any rate, I think I know what I will be still working on come Christmas.

:looney:

Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Sometimes you need a case spread but most of the time not. I would start off with tossing a rag ect on the ring gear and spinning it ( with bearing caps off) hoping to make it "pop", and then if that doesn't work use pry bars carefully, I really wouldn't worry about breaking it but be careful not to break your air feed line or any fittings ect.

Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

One thing that worked for me on removing my carrier was a nylon rope wrapped around and then cranked it out with a come along. Worked pretty well. As for the ARB, no clue.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

The recommendation of a case spreader for an ARB loaded carrier is due to the carrier shims are placed outside the carrier bearings rather than inside. This means when installing the carrier to get a tight preload you could end up damaging the shims.

It is possible though to install the ARB without a case spreader, I have installed all the ARB's in both my CJ and XJ w/o one. It just requires alittle more care when loading.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Thank you. That is the piece of information I needed.

I think my preference is going to be for using a case spreader. I will look into fabbing up my own.

Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

A lot of folks cut those little plastic flanges off their axle shafts- they don't do much at all for keeping stuff out of the tubes. I'd suggest that while you have that D30 apart you weld some mini skids on to your LCA mounts and add gussets to the C's. You'll probly melt your BJs during that process, so you might consider new ones. This is all much easier with the axle removed from the Jeep.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

And the plot thickens...

Besides pulling the axles (getting a 36 mm socket is on my to-do list for the day), is there a good way to tell if these shafts have been changed to 30 spline?

Doing some searching I came across this thread: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/dana-30-30-spline-axle-shaft-inner-seals-same-d44-rubi-1544782/

I know the previous owner upgraded the shafts in the rear. It would not be unreasonable to think that he may have done likewise in the front, especially with the ARB locker install. The shafts certainly do not match the shafts from my stock '96, but I have no idea how much variation there may have been over the years, or what variety of aftermarket alternatives are (or have been) out there.

The shafts in question measure 1.33" in diameter. I cannot get calipers in past the factory dust rings to get a decent measurement on my old axle. U-joints on both axles have bearing caps measuring 1.19". I gather both are using the 760 U-joints.

I don't know if a picture will tell anything useful or not. At the very least it will show the difference in profile on these two axles, but that may or may not be useful information.

Here is the upgraded axle:




Here is the stock axle (1996):



Any ideas?

I suppose I could just order seals for both options. Odds are the shipping is the lion's share of that order anyways. Still I would like to know in advance what I am digging into.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

id pull the diff cover and see if there are any markings/numbers on the ARB that designates it to being 27 spline or otherwise.

and you dont need a 36mm socket to pull the shaft... you can actually just pull the 3 hub bolts (13mm 12 point) and take the shaft and hub apart as an assembly. youll have to pull the unit bearing anyway. its actually common practice to have a set of spares with the unit bearing already installed for trail use. it makes trail repairs extremely fast.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

I think I have what should be a workable case spreader. I haven't finished with my mounts for my dial indicators, but I don't think those will take too much more time. With any luck I will manage to take care of this job tomorrow.

Never having played with a case spreader I am not entirely certain of what I have built here. If anyone sees any likely problems then please speak up. Here is what I have done:

Sides of these are 1 1/2" x 4" x 3/8" thick, spacers are 5/8" square x 2" long, leaving me with a 5/8" square hole in the center. I probably could have left off the welding of the faces, but it just seemed too inviting to not weld it up. Just meant I needed to clean up the faces afterwards.



Here is the cleaning up of the faces:



I made inserts for those two holes that seem to be at the side of every Dana axle. 7/8" is what they measure. I could not find 7/8" round bar on the shelf, so I turned some 1" down. I found 7/8" was actually not going to fit, so they are about 1/64" undersized. Still a pretty tight fit, but with some effort I can get them in.



Here is the layout of most of it (before the faces were cleaned up):



This is the full assembly. 5/8" acme threaded rod for the bottom. 5/8" round bar with DOM stops welded on. I have a full 2" of engagement both top and bottom. This should be pretty close to the right width for a Dana 30, and I should be able to safely open it up another 2" for a larger axle. I haven't measured to see how wide I need to be able to go in order to accommodate a Dana 80. If I need to I can make wider spreaders pretty easily. The end pieces are the important parts. Bolts in the corners are 1/2" Gr. 8.



Look like it should work?

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

I doubt youll need it but it seems good

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Well, now I am not sure what to think.

I went at it on the premise that since I had built a case spreader I would not actually need it (one of the many corollaries of Murphy's Law). I started with the rag trick. Used a section of cut-off jeans folded over. That got the carrier about half way out, but it pushed out the side with the ring gear further than it did the other side, in other words, it got it a bit sideways. I tried using a lever to get it to come out, but it did not want to move. Once I pushed the ring gear side back in a bit (straightened it) then it popped out without much more trouble, using a lever.

Cool, no need for the case spreader so far.

Spent the next several hours cleaning up all sorts of gunk, especially out of the axle tubes.

Got The Bride to help me keep things lined up while driving in the new seals.

Then put the carrier back in, all the bearings/shims in the same places as before. And it went right in. Real easy like. I didn't even get to take a single whack at it with a mallet.

So now I am worried...

Should I be?

I have never played around with setting up gears before. How would I go about checking to see if things are actually still set up correctly?

My concern is that when the carrier got cocked sideways it did something to either compress things farther than normal or spread the case farther than it should have. When feeding the rag in I was not able to continue to turn the pinion by hand for very long at all. I used a screwdriver as a handle in the empty straps as a form of lever. So not a very long lever, but still some leverage. And I am a relatively strong guy.

And of course this does not get this axle ready yet. With the axle shafts out I was able to confirm that the U-joints are shot. I had a suspicion that would be the case. In spite of all the gunk from the leaking axle seals there was still a fine red dust all around the U-joints. New ones were ordered at the same time I ordered the axle seals. However, the unit bearings are still attached to the axle shafts. We will see how much additional fun they add to the process.

Somehow, as part of the scope creep I expect I will end up having to replace the unit bearings. Just because. :confused1

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

I am still trying to figure out if I need to be worried about this or not. From what I can tell everything regarding preload revolves around the premise that new bearings are involved, but that is not the case in this instance.

I think this sums up the situation:

In addition to these two dimensions, there are the pinion and carrier bearing preloads. New tapered roller bearings are installed under slight pressure to allow for wear dimensions during bearing break-in, while still keeping the assembly free from exhibiting any play after the bearings set in.

Click to expand...

Source, if anyone cares: http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/1401-ring-and-pinion-set-up-gear-talk/

These bearings should be broken in and all wear dimensions accounted for.

Then I consider things such as this:

I've pulled the caps off of 30's and literally had the carrier fall out.

Click to expand...

Source: (Reply #14) http://naxja.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1096857

Since I am not setting up any new parts (besides the axle seals) what is reasonable to expect?

I really don't want to go down the setting up gears slope just yet.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Ive installed arbs with out spreaders. Im sure its fine. Whats backlash at?

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

No idea. I would first have to figure out how to measure that. (I never have set up a differential...I have too many other irons in the fire right now to go very far down that rabbit hole.)

What should it be on an axle with bearings that are broken in already?

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

You should fine, it is just a worn in setup. If you hold the yoke solid and move the ring gear by hand there should be about 1/64" of movement back and fourth. Much more than that and the backlash has opened up too much.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Those shafts are Chromoly. Key identifiers are the machining for full circle clips and that the shaft does not neck down after the u-joint yoke. I assume that you are going to take the "new" housing and just replace the axle seals and put that whole assembly under your jeep? If that is the case, all you will need to do when reassembling is remember which shims went on what side, that the outer race stays with the bearing it came off, and that the bearing caps stay on their respective sides and in the correct orientation. The bearing caps will have stampings on them that will match a stamp on the housing. This will help you make sure they are installed on the correct side and in the correct orientation.

If any of the above are not installed correctly, you will see a difference in the mesh pattern of the gears. What did you torque the bearing caps to?

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Thank you for the confirmation on the shafts. I suspected alloy, but I don't have the experience to say for certain.

Yes, I am transferring the entire axle assembly from one XJ to another. Will be doing the same with the rear. Going from 3.07 to 4.10 gearing. Hoping this thing will finally be able to get out of its own way.

Everything was kept in order. I could not have swapped bearing caps if I tried. The ARB air line goes through one of them. Orientation of the other side was maintained. A previous builder punched dots on the caps and housing. Those were all noted and followed.

The torque spec I used was 45 ft/lbs for the bearing caps.

If anything it could well be that the bearings are beyond broken in and are worn out. Evidence suggests that the previous owner wheeled the snot out of this thing.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Why arent you replacing the bearings? Zero preload on those carrier bearings will not end well, "worn in" or not... zero is zero. Once you hit the throttle, your entire carrier is gonna shift torwards the drivers side, adding excessive backlash.

I havent looked up torque specs for a d30, but thats close to half what d44 caps get torqued to... VIF.

Measuring backlash with tape measure dimensions is fail sauce. HF has cheap dial indicators w/ a magnetic base. Setup at .005-.010, unless the gears have a spec engraved on them.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

It is not for want of a dial indicator that I am trying to avoid replacing the bearings. It is for want of about $1000 worth of other tools and the time in which to do it. If it ends up that it really needs to have the differential set up all over again then it is going to be a shop that does it. I don't have the air compressor for an impact, nor the tooling to pull off the bearings, nor the yoke wrench or the time to build one, nor the inch/lb torque wrench. It all adds up. Then add in the learning curve trying to get the pattern right. This is the wrong time for me to be going down that rabbit hole.

Re: Project Scope Creep: Educate me on R&Ring an ARB locker in a D30

Some jobs you just have to earn every inch of progress the hard way.

With the free time I got during Christmas I got the axle mounted into place and the U-joints in the axle shafts replaced. I understand these can be done with a hammer, but I opted to use the press instead. No problem pressing out the first cup on each side, but twice I had this happen while trying to get the second cup to go back out the way it came in:



Replacement full circle clips needed to be found. They are an M30 and can be obtained from Fastenal. Three to a package.



I wanted to pick up a set of bent nosed external ring pliers at the same time, but those were not available. A pair of screwdrivers does the job, just not quite as gracefully.




I know opinions are mixed on the subject of a seal at the outside of the axle, but given the joys of pulling the carrier I decided that $50 for a pair of aftermarket seals was a minor risk with more potential value than loss. We will see how these behave long term.



The last detail was the unit bearings. Messing around with the axle shafts I could feel that the old bearings were done. The fine red dust around the axle nuts/retaining rings/cotter pins should have clued me in. Plans call for WJ brakes, so I didn't want to buy premium bearings. I ordered a pair at $50 each from 1A Auto. Spray painted them so I can distinguish my rusts down the road:



Thought I would be all done this afternoon. Even toyed with trying to make it to the Adopt-A-Trail tomorrow morning. Figured I really shouldn't because I will not have had a chance to check things out yet, but that dilemma got solved for me without question:



Napa is supposed to have a 3/4" drive 36mm impact socket arriving for me tomorrow morning. We will see if I break the 3/4" drive too. I am guessing whoever put this together had no way to measure torque and so just went to town with an impact. If worse comes to worse I may have to find someone with an impact in order to get these things apart.

It is slow going, but I am getting there. One battle at a time.