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Learn me a little

Lincoln

NAXJA Member #321
NAXJA Member
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I've been playing around with the idea of redoing my rear suspension. I figured I would start by drawing what I have before attempting to do something better.

Tell me I'm on the right track or set me straight.

Red - Current Links. The uppers are triangulated with one attachment point at the axle.
Blue - Those links extended forward.
Yellow - Line to get the anti-squat (That sure is a fun word to say :) )

The lower links slope up at 16 degrees and the uppers slope 3 degrees up. I used 38" for the CG (upper bell housing bolt).

Questions:
1. I figured about 115% AS. Does that seem reasonable based on the drawing?
2. The 3 degree slope of my upper control arms would be the roll axis angle right?
3. Other comments?

Sorry for the large file size. When I converted it to jpg the detail was lost.

Thanks,
Lincoln

1st_try.bmp
 
Here's your drawing with a vertical green line at the front axle centerline and another green line intersecting at the CG height. The orange line from the rear contact patch to the intersection of the green lines is your 100% anti-squat line. An IC above it will be > 100% and an IC below it will be < 100% anti-squat. From the drawing, you can see that your anti-squat is about 140%.

Change your drawing so that the lower control arm is attached on the front of the axle tube at the axle centerline. You can see how this will lower your AS % quite a bit.

Determining your roll-axis requires both the side view and plan view.

Lincoln_squat.jpg
 
can we get a better explanation of determining roll axis and what to shoot for in that arena?

I have done much searching including reading the God of suspensions, and 4 link for dummies threads on PBB. I have found that very little is said about roll axis except "keep it flat and clost to the height of the CG, but not too close"

how do you determine it?
how close is too close?
 
Here's what I understand about roll-axis (and I'm saying this as much as a question as an answer):

The higher the roll-axis, the less body roll you get. So if the roll axis was perfectly aligned with the center of gravity you would get zero body roll. However, the lower the roll axis is, the more warning you get before a roll-over occurs.

So with a roll-axis perfectly aligned with the center of gravity, you would have much more sidehill stability - BUT, you would get NO body roll whatsoever before the tires came off the ground and you would roll. With a very low roll-axis you would feel like you were going to roll LONG before you actually rolled - but it would be "easier" to roll the vehicle (i.e. the angle at which you rolled would be lower than with a high-roll center)

So in theory, the higher the roll-axis the better - but in reality, you want a little warning before you roll-over. Of course, the COG on any off-road rig is going to be too high to hope to get the roll-axis to match it, even with portals I would think.

On a double-triangulated 4-link, the roll-axis is a line drawn between the point at which the upper links converge and the lower links converge.

So is that all correct, or did I get suckered by one load of BS or another on those PBB threads?
 
Thanks that's the kind of info I was looking for. I was going to work on the side view tonight. Borrowed a copy of autocad and trying to learn my way through it at the same time.

Lincoln
 
mad maXJ said:
great! now, where is the roll axis on a 3 link with a wishbone upper and parallel lowers? straight along the upper link?

Draw a line through the center of the joint where the wishbone attaches to the axle, parallel with the lower links in side view. This is your roll axis. The angle of the lower links will determine the amount of axle-steer.
 
Here is the other view. The lower arms meet waaayy out there.

Also I caclulated the AS again and it came out at 141% not 140%. :D

I think I'm starting to get this a little better.

Thanks,
Lincoln

2nd_try.bmp
 
You meant LEAF springs, right? Or was that an incomplete sentence such as "Leave the leaf springs out"?

Leaf springs are simple, durable and after a million years (give or take) of development are simple to setup. However, a good 3 or 4 link suspension works better. That's "good" as in properly engineered
 
He's drunk. I did leave the springs Hinkley, they are just coils now. :D

I know your old, but you have to remember what my current setup looks like. I threw the leafs away like five year ago. I just want to figure this out so I can be cool like City Boy. :cool:

Lincoln
 
Lincoln said:
Here is the other view. The lower arms meet waaayy out there.

Also I caclulated the AS again and it came out at 141% not 140%. :D

I think I'm starting to get this a little better.

Thanks,
Lincoln

Lincoln_squat_2.jpg

My AS calculation came out to 140.4489% so I rounded down. :D

Ignore Beezil's comment about ass-wobble (AW). It's only a factor in .NASCAR

I projected the points where your plan-view links converge up to the side-view drawing. The new orange line between these two poiints is your roll-axis. Moving the lower link mounts to the center of the axle would help flatten the roll-axis. More triangulation in the lower arms would do the same.

A more horizontal roll-axis will reduce axle steer as long as it stays horizontal. Add a little anti-squat to the picture (dynamic change) and the roll-axis will become less horizontal and therefore axle steer will increase. Because of this, I think that slightly more than 100% anti-squat, calculated at climbing attitude, would be a good design goal.
 
Thanks Max. Beezil and Hinkley are just full of it tonight anyway. :)

My plans were to lengthen the lowers and uppers, move the lower mounting points inboard of the frame. I was playing with string and the tape last night and I probably won't be able to get them as flush as I wanted but I should be able to make them a lot better than they are now.

My biggest difference was the AS. I was planning on shooting for 85-90%. You think 100% would be better. I had planned on trying to give some adjustment ablility.

What do you think I should shoot for in the roll axis? What I have doesn't seem good at all (from what I've read) and just raising the lower mounts even with the tube would lower it quite a bit. :confused:

I'm moving quite fast, ok a turtle moves faster. I still haven't decided if I'm going to try and retain my single mounting point at the axle, figure out a new one, or just use dual heims. :)

Thanks,
Lincoln
 
Lincoln....

think about link lengths around 38-40".

think about placing both links at the axle end ABOVE the top of the axle tube.

think about how much you hate sheetmetal, and would consider building a tunnel for the upper links.

no way I can see getting a nice low roll axis on an xj with a decent amount of lift and big tires without doing this.
 
Don't see how you can lengthen the upper arm much without going the Beezil/OneHub tubular route. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Without lengthening the uppers, you could end up with pinion gain problems by extending the lowers. Forget about the string and tape. It just won't hold up on the trail...

If you're willing to start cutting and caging, find out what Beezil and OneHub like and dislike about their designs; copy and modify. Otherwise, raising the axle mount and triangulating the lower arms would make a difference. You don't need to lengthen the arms to level out the roll axis, but it does help reduce the rate of change in geometry as your suspension cycles.

The AS% I mentioned was relative to a chassis at a climbing attitude(45°angle). I haven't stared at a drawing of my Jeep(@ 45°) long enough to determine how this affects AS%. I was hoping Ed Stevens (Mr Wizard) would do the hard work. ;)

How does your current setup perform? What are the complaints? What are the quirks about it that you don't like? It would be interesting to know. It would also be nice to hear from the tubular crowd on how their rigs are working and what, if anything, they would change. Nothing beats experience.
 
I was hoping the "special guys" would speak up more. Beezil seems to be more informative now that's he's changed his name back. I can't believe how slow we are though. I bet mark was just being a smart a$$ from the start with his "leave the springs" comment.

Beezil, what did your upper ams lengths turn out like and what kind of seperation? I don't think I'm going to go above the tube with the lowers. I would have to change springs and don't have the cash for coilovers and don't really want to get into the 1/4 elip. Still thinking though.

I'm confused by the length of the upper arms and the seperation at the frame end. I've read that it doesn't matter as long as their not too short to they should be close to the same length. And I've seen setups with hardly any verticle seperation at the fram to more than 1/2 the distance the axle has. :D

I though about making the lower arms longer and moving the axle mount up, but I don't think the center link (brackets, frame, and axle) can handle the extra stress. If I'm going to have to mess with those I might as well build new.

Complaints:
1. The lower arm mounts hang low and to the sides of the frame. Some stuff I couldn't even take a strap over because I was worried about tearing them off. When they hang it's stuck.

2. Tacky hills cause the left front to lift while going up. The air bags helped with a lot of it. On some of the climbs in Moab it would still lift the left front about 6". I've even got it to lift on tacky dirt.

Those are the two biggest complaints. I've gotten used to the rear steer and other things.

I decided I need to get the winch on soon (snow runs already starting) so I've taken part of my bender money for a bumper fund. For now the plan is, bumper, gears, cage, rear suspension. Hopefully the rear suspension will start in Feb. Not making the bumper is just to save time, I don't want to have to park and ride this year. :)
 
Lincoln said:


I'm confused by the length of the upper arms and the seperation at the frame end. I've read that it doesn't matter as long as their not too short to they should be close to the same length. And I've seen setups with hardly any verticle seperation at the fram to more than 1/2 the distance the axle has. :D

I though about making the lower arms longer and moving the axle mount up, but I don't think the center link (brackets, frame, and axle) can handle the extra stress. If I'm going to have to mess with those I might as well build new.

Complaints:
1. The lower arm mounts hang low and to the sides of the frame. Some stuff I couldn't even take a strap over because I was worried about tearing them off. When they hang it's stuck.

2. Tacky hills cause the left front to lift while going up. The air bags helped with a lot of it. On some of the climbs in Moab it would still lift the left front about 6". I've even got it to lift on tacky dirt.

Those are the two biggest complaints. I've gotten used to the rear steer and other things.

I decided I need to get the winch on soon (snow runs already starting) so I've taken part of my bender money for a bumper fund. For now the plan is, bumper, gears, cage, rear suspension. Hopefully the rear suspension will start in Feb. Not making the bumper is just to save time, I don't want to have to park and ride this year. :)


The vertical seperation between the upper and lower arms mounts on the frame end have an impact on the IC location, and the stress on the mounts. More separation moves the IC forward, and applies less stress on any one mount. Less separation shortens the IC length (and the relative height then becomes the determinant factor on the anti-squat result, much like with a leaf or radius arm system).

The upper and lower arm length differences impact the pinion angle gain as the travel is cycled, and it works with the relative arm angles (each is important). Right now the wildly different relative angles of the two arms is the determinant factor. Correct the determinant factor, as close as possible, before changing arm lengths.

Try to relocate the axle end of the lower arm higher, to make the arms more parallel. This will increase the IC length, move it forward, and lower the forward end of the roll axis, while reducing the anti-squat.

For kicks, lower the frame end of the upper arm (make it less parallel), as a method to lower the AS, to see what happens to the IC, and the pinion angle? Lengthen the lowers and test it out (on the shop floor). Playing with the options will model the results of changes (and show why one change is preferred over another).

The front end lift on hills is partly due to the short IC and it's location behind the front axle, or nearly under the CG. The IC location is the determinent factor contributing to the front end lift. Relocating the IC, forward or rearward in relation to the CG, will change the leverage the suspension has on the chassis.

Move the IC to the rear of the CG and the AS takes over (rear lift, and hop).

Move the IC forward, far ahead of the CG, and you reduce it's ability to lift the front end. You need to place the location where the chassis weight works on the axle way out on a long lever arm (but not too far). Raising the axle end of the lower mounts will relocate the IC forward. I would not raise the axle end mounts higher than needed to keep the IC behind the front bumper.

IMO, the IC needs to be between the front axle and the front bumper for a vehicle that has the engine straddling the front axle (further back for a front-mid-engine where the dampner is behind the axle centerline, like in the textbook racers). With rockcrawling and wheeling there is no testing data to offer ideas on where is the best place to locate the IC (not like with road racers or drag racers).

The end result will still have some angle to the lower arms (they will not be parallel to the ground). This angle may allow you to tuck them up into the frame rails, or inside the frame rails. If you want to reduce the rear steer effect, you need to narrow the frame end mounts of the lower arms. This will pull-in the forward point of the roll axis, making it less sensitive to changes in the suspension travel (right now the roll axis becomes increasingly steep as the suspension extends or jacks).

Add the pinion to the drawing. Draw a line between the arms axle mounts and add a line for the pinion angle off of this line (two lines representing the pinion and it's restraints in the axle mounts, side view.) With a SYE and DCCV joint shaft you want to try to keep the pinion pointed at the tcase.

Cycle the suspension and watch the pinion angle change. I find it easier to draw this on the shop floor, full size, and cut cardboard to model the axle mounts and pinion. I then draw the arms, and axle, at full compression and extension.

With a level upper arm (looking at the drawing) and a steep lower arm the pinion nose will roll down as the system compresses, the opposite of what you want for u-joint life (OK with limited compression). The pinion angle on extension is the beneficial direction, and you want to keep this attribute. The arms need to be closer to parallel, but not true parallel, even if this reduces the beneficial pinion angle gain on extension (it can be fixed by changing the length the lower arm).

With the arms more parallel, and the IC lowered, you can alter the pinion angle gain by changing the lengths of the arms. Longer upper arms, more equal length compared to the lowers, and you reduce the angle gain change. Shorter lowers do the same (something you will likely need to do to raise the axle end mounts). Moving the axle mounts forward or backward, as the arms length changes with fixed frame ends, will locate the pinion in the middle or end of where the angle gain becomes a problem.

Summary?

Raise the axle mounts on the lower arms (to lower the AS and IC).

Raise the frame end of the lower arm mounts to the extent allowable, without moving the IC too far rearward (you do not want parallel arms, nor do you want arms that locate the IC far behind the front axle centerline, not behind the CG like a lifted leaf sprung XJ).

Narrow the frame end of the lower arms(to reduce the roll axis rake change through the travel range).

Change the length difference between the upper and lower arms to achieve the best trade off between what fits, and pinion angle gain through the travel range. Move the axle end mounts (probably only the upper) forward or back to keep the angle gain beneficial.

I hope it helps (I now need to pick up an adult beverage to drink when I get home).
 
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