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Are we Capitolists or Socialists? Sound off.....

"Capitalist"

And we're an ineffective combination of both, y'ask me. Pure capitalism will not abide a socialist economy section (welfare state,) while socialism finds capitalism to be anathema ("work for what you get" vice "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.")

Granted, some socialist elements have historical precedent - old-age and disability pensions provided by the government were proposed in Common Sense by Thomas Paine. This allows for effective provision of people who are unable to work anymore, due to age or infirmity.

However, that did posit that beneficiaries of the pension had actually worked within the system up to that point - as a forerunner of Social Security, it made the assumption that in order to collect from the system, you had to pay into the system first. None of this coming into the country and collecting SS right off the boat crappola.

Likewise disability pensions - the idea of disability was provision for those who had worked previously, but were no longer able to for some valid reason. Allowing it for someone disabled from birth is a stretch of the original definition, and "disability right off the boat" (I'm reasonably sure that happens as well...) should simply not be.

There is no reason that a mix of capitalism and socialism can't be made to work - if the proper elements of each are picked. However, we're also heading in the direction of "penalising success through taxation" (socialist principle,) which will kill capitalism - and it's capitalism that will make the economy work and help to bring it back.

The very smartest thing that could have been done to revitalise the economy would be to have declared a "tax holiday" for a year or two, and let all of the domestic product be put into circulation instead.

Second smartest? Don't do a damned thing. This whole "borrowing from the future" bit is going to end up causing more problems than it's meant to cure, through simple devaluation of the dollar.

"Business too big to fail?" Prove it - if they don't fail, they were too big. If they fall over, someone was lying.

Banks too big to fail? FDIC covers individual depositors to $100K ($250K to the end of next year,) let FDIC pay the depositors if the bank falls over, and don't bother paying the bank. That's what FDIC is for. It will cost a lot less, and you'll see some efficiency improvements in the banking industry.

Yeah, I think executive compensation is out of control, but it's not the government's place to regulate it - let the free market take over. The banks should be pushed to the point where they realised that paying someone several million dollars per annum is a waste of money. And then stop doing it, as a whole. (If these execs don't voluntarily cut their pay from the off - which they should. How much money do you need, anyhow?)

POTUS makes $450K/year - that sounds like a nice top. I don't see any reason why anyone should make any more than that - POTUS is the toughtest job in the country. Execs and "athletes" don't do anything to deserve the money they get - but they think they're "entitled" to it anymore, simply because it's gone on unchecked for so long. And look at what's been happening to a lot of "athletes" of late; don't seem like they're worthy at all in the first place. Geez - a lot of celebs in general getting busted for DUI, busted for dope, nailed for a whole buncking funch of other things - but they think they're still worth the money, and they're still held up as role models by to-day's youth. Hah?

You want a hero to look up to? Try these names: Ed Freeman. Roy Benavidez. Charles Beckwith. David Hackworth. Roy Henry Boehm. All twentieth-century heroes, in the truest definition of the word.

And none of them (save maybe Boehm and Hackworth, from book royalties) have probably ever seen a million dollars that belonged to them in their lives...
 
POTUS makes $450K/year - that sounds like a nice top. I don't see any reason why anyone should make any more than that - POTUS is the toughtest job in the country. Execs and "athletes" don't do anything to deserve the money they get - but they think they're "entitled" to it anymore, simply because it's gone on unchecked for so long. And look at what's been happening to a lot of "athletes" of late; don't seem like they're worthy at all in the first place. Geez - a lot of celebs in general getting busted for DUI, busted for dope, nailed for a whole buncking funch of other things - but they think they're still worth the money, and they're still held up as role models by to-day's youth. Hah?
That's capitalism though. Let's use the athlete example, say in the NFL. As long as the market will bear those salaries through ticket sales, merchandising, ad revenue, etc. and if the owners of teams are willing and able to pay those salaries, then I see no reason they shouldn't get paid what they do.

It's not a matter of need, but a matter of revenue and cash flow in a private business. Granted, many of these exec. types have manipulated the numbers to look like they justify that money when indeed they do not.
 
It's a tricky question. I believe we are on a slide towards socialism. The growing welfare class, Nationalized healthcare, the use of the word "right" as in, it is your "right" to get free health care, it is your "right" to get subsidised housing, is a great start. With "rights" come responsibilities, it is someones "right" to recieve free health care, who's responsibility is it to pay for it? People like to answer it's the governments responsibility to pay. The government has no money, it belongs to the taxpayers, in steps socialism. The political parties of this country are feeding this at both ends, they get more power. I'm not a socialist, but, my friend I fear my country is becoming one. My spell check is on the blink, forgive me.
 
People have been experimenting with various social/political systems since their have been people. The only real system that is functional is revolution (an election is really nothing more than a peaceful revolution).
The problems start when a political system is established and smart people start right in exploiting the system. Then others carry it to extremes, constantly looking for absolutes that rarely exist.. The majority eventually revolts.
In a purley capitalistic society, people are a consumable resource. The tail wagging the Dog. Do you exist to make money or make money to exist? Use people up and throw them away. And hopefully at the same time, the cream will float to the top, more often than not the chit floats.
Capitalism is also a great waste of resources, for every endeavored that succeeds many fail. Whatever is left over after the failure finds it way into a landfill or is sold below cost.
The only really important qualification for a system that will function for an extended period, is a benevolent system. If the people, as a whole, get feed up enough with the existing system, things fall apart jiffy quick.
The system we have now, is in general, a Westminster system, with the Princes of Industry (and money) and politicians running things. With a Feudal twist, money replacing the sword or money directing the sword.
The US is becoming day by day, more and more like the 1960s USSR. Many of the progressive proposals of today are almost exactly the same as those decried about by the US in the USSR in the 60's. The state raising the children instead of the parents (the state has them more hours than you do and even then you have to divide your attention to other life functions when you do have them). Castrating the Church. The list is very long and in the large part parallels, the Russian (failed) experiment on many levels.
People tend to be wind socks and blow in the direction of the crowd. The only real representative form of Government is the Republic. And these have to be small enough to represent a faction or region.
Want good governemnt? Decentralize!!!!
Much of it is smoke and mirrors anyway, there is a whole sub culture out there of royalty. You rarely hear anything about Royalty, in Europe it is hereditary and wields much more power than you'd think, in the States it is mostly Neo Royalty but still just as pivotal.
People also tend to ignore stamms (or in English) maybe breeds is the nearest definition. Something many people seem blind towards, I guess because it isn't often talked about. Your political affiliation is more important than your roots or genetic inclinations or is it?

A simplified ancesery analysis from the Census data base.

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In the grand scheme of things the majority of us are Celts and tend towards a political system that transcends religion or language. An obvious genetic tendency that is often ignored. The Celts were more a social and cultural body than a race. The Celts in America are doomed, the birth rate has fallen below sustainability.

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The vast majority of Americans share many more similarities than differences, though people tend to notice the differences more than the similarities. They tend to war over the fine points.

Sometimes you have to look at where you came from, before you decide where you are going. Past successes rather than untried theories likely leading to (probable) failures. Or better yet, not repeating the same mistakes over and over again. The roots of American culture has about the same climate as Pennsylvania and originated in Austria (mostly).
 
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We're on a steady march toward socialism.

We've begun calling our country the "homeland" with a newly formed department of "homeland security" (motherland anyone?)

We're now determining that priveleges are rights, and vise versa. The RIGHT to bear arms, is it really? If you have to have a government issued permit, doesn't that indicate that it is a permitted activity and not a right? Think drivers permit/license. We now apparently have a right to healthcare, but when the government controls that aspect of your life the government controls your life. Don't do what we ask and little suzie may not get that cancer treatment...

We are now in the process of overthrowing capatalism. Gigantic businesses are failing, and instead of allowing capatalism to work it's magic the government has determined that some business is too big to fail, so they're nice enough to put up our cash to prop up industry and nationalize it a bit.

We tax people on their income, their expenditures, transferred money (inheritance, gift) income earned from previously taxed money that was invested, peoples own hard work on their own property. Private land ownership is a joke. How can land be yours, but if you don't pay the taxes the government has the authority to sieze that property? Doesn't this make property tax in effect rent that you owe the government?

Our welfare system continues to grow. The government continues to raise the minimum wage, which is a tax on the middle class and only serves to hurt minimum wage earners. A thoroughly non-capatalist policy.

We are sliding and continue to slide down that slope of socialist/communist society all in the name of helping the poor "little guy"
 
The government continues to raise the minimum wage, which is a tax on the middle class and only serves to hurt minimum wage earners. A thoroughly non-capatalist policy.

I'm tracking on everything you said except for this. How does a higher min. wage hurt min. wage earners?
 
I'm tracking on everything you said except for this. How does a higher min. wage hurt min. wage earners?


Theory is pretty simple.

Increase min wage, employers have 2 options.
1. increase prices
2. decrease employees

This has a trickle up effect since most goods pass through several stages in a supply chain.

If individually employers choose to reduce # of employees the effect goes something like this.
1. reduced number of jobs available. More unskilled workers competing for fewer jobs.
2. reduced workforce =reduced output
3. reduced output means lower supply
4. shorter supply = higher prices.

If the employers choose to charge more fore services, the end result is the same, higher prices.


Therefore, by increasing the min wage you drive inflation higher faster. Remember what a fast food value meal cost before the last min wage hike? Yep that's right, about the cost of 1 hour of min wage labor. What is it today? Dang, about the same labor cost, just inflated for the new wages.


Moreover, some people aren't making minimum wage, they're making a little bit more. When the minimum wage goes up, it reduces the margin of difference between everyone else and the bottom, thus effectively acting as a pay cut if you're making, say $12 an hour because now instead of making 2x minimum wage, you're only making 1.5x

I could go on, but don't want to belabor the point.
 
I'm tracking on everything you said except for this. How does a higher min. wage hurt min. wage earners?

Increasing the minimum wage will:

1) Increase the collected tax base (the rate doesn't change, but 5% of $110 is more than 5% of $100. Simple mathematics)

2) Increase the essential costs of production (if minimum wage is increased, minimum wage earners get "paid more". This money has to come from somewhere.)

3) Result in mild to moderate overwork of minimum wage earners (since one or two people are going to be cut to allow for payment of the remaining, but the workload won't decrease.)

Therefore, raising the minimum wage is nothing more than a feel-good measure that won't benefit anyone (except, of course, the collectors of payroll taxes. Any guesses as to who that is?)

Increasing the minimum wage doesn't do anything to "stimulate" the economy - it never has. It never will. The only people who come out ahead are the assessors and collectors of payroll taxes - the Federal government (always) and the state government (most of them collect payroll taxes.) The various programmes funded by payroll taxes (Medicare/Medicaid, state Disability plans, Social Security, et al) will come out ahead, but the worker won't.

Once again, the very best way to stimulate the economy would be to declare at least an income tax holiday (which governments won't do,) because taxation is the single largest drain on the GDP of pretty much any economy. Any portion of the economy not used for actual production, generated by actual production, used in generation of actual production (support services,) or used in the exchange of items produced is a drain - period.

Yes, there are some "essential services" that any society needs - primarily public safety (police/fire and military. Police for threats from within and the minimum necessary to maintain public order. Fire to respond to medical or material threats to safety - they'll receive more training than the average private citizen. Military for protection against threats from without.) But, that's pretty much it. Apart from the old age/disability penions posited by Thomas Pain in Common Sense, I've pretty much covered the essential services that should be funded by the public (most of the rest of the programmes we all pay for don't actually do anything useful. National Endowment for the Arts, anyone?)

Public education? Yeah, it's essential - but we can cut most of the administration (since administration is almost invariably overhead,) and cut the cost without cutting the quality of the education. If the system were to be improved, it's more likely it could be funded directly through contributions and through assessed funding (bills sent home with the child) than through assessment of property taxes and the like. Something alse needs to be done about the tenure system - I'm sure it has its good points, but I've also seen tenured teachers who I was forced to wonder just how they made it long enough to get tenure - they certainly weren't any good at teaching!

And, there are people who don't have children in the school system (or have children,) or who won't have children in the school system (because they home-school,) and I honestly don't see why they should have to be forced to pay for a system they aren't using anymore, or won't have a use for in the first place. Seems to me that was how it had worked before.

But, I digress. Often happens when I get started discussing the economy, politics, taxation, and the like...
 
And when you raise minimum wage, all those ahead of it rise accordingly. And now we all make more money! The only one that really benefits from it all is Uncle Sam. Back when I started working 37 years ago, I worked in a supermarket (the A&P if anyone remembers). My first payrate was just under $3.00/hr. You could do a lot with an hour's pay. Regular gas was .199/gal. A roll of TP was a nickel. Income tax was a percentage, not so bad in the early Seventies, but oppressive by the late Seventies/ early Eighties, I remember over one-third of my income. Nowadays, the percentage is creeping up again, but even if the % stays the same, for the approx 10x more I make now, the govt. takes 10x more also. My buying power erodes, but they still get their share. Compound that with state and local taxes (not to mention sales, excise, property, fuel, etc. taxes), and our purchasing power is at its lowest point in decades. And now the Administration is making noises about abolishing the tax deduction for mortgage interest. Yeah, Wall Street wobbled under Pres. Bush, but this current crop of clowns seems hell-bent on finishing the job. Didn't the Romans act like this toward the end of their grand and glorious run? Bread and circus, and today it's minimum wage and free health care. If there's no incentive to better yourself and be the best you can, then why bother. Uncle Sugar will make it all better!
 
And when you raise minimum wage, all those ahead of it rise accordingly. And now we all make more money! The only one that really benefits from it all is Uncle Sam. Back when I started working 37 years ago, I worked in a supermarket (the A&P if anyone remembers). My first payrate was just under $3.00/hr. You could do a lot with an hour's pay. Regular gas was .199/gal. A roll of TP was a nickel. Income tax was a percentage, not so bad in the early Seventies, but oppressive by the late Seventies/ early Eighties, I remember over one-third of my income. Nowadays, the percentage is creeping up again, but even if the % stays the same, for the approx 10x more I make now, the govt. takes 10x more also. My buying power erodes, but they still get their share. Compound that with state and local taxes (not to mention sales, excise, property, fuel, etc. taxes), and our purchasing power is at its lowest point in decades. And now the Administration is making noises about abolishing the tax deduction for mortgage interest. Yeah, Wall Street wobbled under Pres. Bush, but this current crop of clowns seems hell-bent on finishing the job. Didn't the Romans act like this toward the end of their grand and glorious run? Bread and circus, and today it's minimum wage and free health care. If there's no incentive to better yourself and be the best you can, then why bother. Uncle Sugar will make it all better!

I kind of back doored into a job, where I needed to know book keeping and auditing. I learned to actually notice where my income was going. To make a long story short, I went from $65,000 a year to to less than half that and actually had more disposable income in the end. I do the stuff now I used to pay somebody else to do, I do a better job in most instances. Work half as many hours and actually got to raise my kids myself.
If you crunch the numbers and actually figure out where your money is going, streamline your life and make enough money to live instead of living to make money, you can actually do OK.
 
You want a hero to look up to? Try these names: Ed Freeman. Roy Benavidez. Charles Beckwith. David Hackworth. Roy Henry Boehm. All twentieth-century heroes, in the truest definition of the word.

Hackworth was full of himself.
 
Hackworth was full of himself.

Perhaps, but he still did more than most of the current crop we're getting, and more than any athlete can ever hope to do in a sport league.

The modern line on "Bread and Circuses" is probably about the same as it was near the decline & fall of the Roman Empire - "The public shall continue to vote themselves bread and circuses until they find that there is neither bread nor circuses."
 
This is why I am in favor of minimum wage increases


If you are, you either haven't put much thought into it, or you're not the most financially saavy person out there.

More money does not equal more wealth. Maybe San Fran is getting to your head, a vacation to the real world might help.:wave:
 
This is why I am in favor of minimum wage increases

Please explain.

MW goes up - salaries ahead of it go up as well (the disparity and class struggle must be maintained - everywhere except the retail sales force, that is.)

Salaries go up (and wages - "salaries" is used inclusively,) and production costs go up. Utility costs go up. Maintenance costs go up. (And I think MW goes up more than the E/O Pay Schedule - although I'm sure GS and GW both stay ahead of the curve... Don't get me started on Congresscritter pay - I think they should pay us for permission to work anymore.)

Costs go up - purchasing power goes down. Thus, MW increases contribute to inflation.

When everyone's pay goes up, the tax bite goes up proportionately. Even if the tax bracket doesn't change, 12% of $110 is more than 12% of $100 - that's a mathematical fact. So, more dollars get funnelled into taxes, and that means they're taken out of productive use. Another inflationary factor.

So the only people that really benefit from MW increases is the government - because they get to collect more in taxation.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the best way to stimulate the economy - bar none - would be to either: 1) declare a "tax holiday" for 6-12 months; or B) institute a flat tax of not more than 10% and replace the FITW with that. That would be a smaller bite than we have now (the states can - and should - follow suit,) and the whole industry that has grown up around the Byzantine nature of the tax code would fold up and the resources would be put to productive use as well. Increasing production improves the economy - putting more of the workforce into productive endeavours would be a good thing, vice letting them stay where they're not actually producing anything (and therefore acting as a sea anchor on the GDP.)

Track purchasing power of the US dollar against the increase in the tax bite over the last 75 years, and you'll see what I mean. The more taxes have been levied against the population, the less the dollar has been able to purchase. A good test of any economy is this: "How much time must a stable journey-level tradesman - carpenter, plumber, et al - work in order to purchase one unit (pound/loaf/kilogramme/whatever) of local bread?"

Track that over time. You can replace "bread" with any staple foodstuff, but make sure it's the same thing each time you make the comparision - a pound of 85% ground beef, for instance. Or a pound of apples. Or a bushel of whole wheat.

Take that track, and compare it to the relative tax bite as a percentage of income - and account for all taxes possible (income tax - all levels. Property tax. Excise tax. Roads & fuel tax. Building tax. Sales & use tax. ...)

The correlation isn't terribly surprising. I don't have my notes in order on the subject anymore (gotta find that notebook,) but I had it tracked back to 1925 - and there were econ majors who would switch declared majors after talking to me (because I pointed out that the economists aren't helping, and that "economics" is anymore little than a mass hallucination based upon a work of pure fiction - that the current dollar is intrinsically worth something of agreed-upon value. It isn't, and hasn't been since it was cast adrift from the gold/silver anchor. Don't believe me? Track gold and silver prices before and after the dollar's value was disconnected from the specie standard...)
 
In a very simple version here's how the increase in minimum wage effects other workers.

The garageman gets $2 hrly, the mechanic makes $3.

Minimum wage goes to $3, the mechanic says "hey, a garageman that doesn't have the skillset I do makes $3 now. I own tools, I have a skill, screw this I'll go change oil" He now has leverage to get a raise. Employer wants to keep the mechanic and gives him a raise.

I have seen it happen.
 
In a very simple version here's how the increase in minimum wage effects other workers.

The garageman gets $2 hrly, the mechanic makes $3.

Minimum wage goes to $3, the mechanic says "hey, a garageman that doesn't have the skillset I do makes $3 now. I own tools, I have a skill, screw this I'll go change oil" He now has leverage to get a raise. Employer wants to keep the mechanic and gives him a raise.

I have seen it happen.

Precisely what I'd meant when I brought "wage disparity" into it. MW goes up, everything else goes up. That money has to be brought in somehow - so costs go up, shop rates go up, labour rate goes up - you get the idea.

I may not have as many years behind me as you do, but I've seen it happen as well. I'd sooner see someone get a raise for merit than "because MW went up" - what's the point in having more dollars if the dollars won't buy any more?

I have no trouble whatever with the idea of having a decent standard of living, and a decent living wage. However, given the fact that the "economy" is so heavily interconnected, I honestly think that mandating a "living wage" isn't going to do anyone at all any good - except whoever is collecting the taxes. The tax collected is really the only thing that goes up - and that doesn't honestly help anyone at all (except the government...)
 
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