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Hard start / No Start

cbwymore

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Rhododendron, OR
Yesterday my 2000 XJ sputtered and died after start up. I was able to restart it the next day and drive it around the block. Shut it off then restarted it when it sputtered and died again. I pulled the codes and got:

P0353 Ignition Coil C Primary/Secondary Circuit
P0351 Ignition Coil A Primary/Secondary Circuit
P1391 Intermittent Loss of CMP or CKP

Now sometimes it will start right up some times not. I get the same codes when it doesn’t start.

I replaced the CPS with a factory part 4 months ago. Checked the connections on CPS, Cam sensor and PCM.

It's a 4.0L, auto ~60K

Where should I look now?

Thanks
 
I'm having a similar problem. Maybe we can help each other. I got codes P0351, P0352, & P0353. The description from obdii.com is:

P0351 Ignition Coil A Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction
P0352 Ignition Coil B Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction
P0353 Ignition Coil C Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction

This happened out of the blue. I was on my way home last night, cruising about 65mph down the expressway. Everything was running fine, then stumble, bloop, burbble, stumble, bloop, burbble, stumble, bloop, burbble. I was able to restart a few times, but could not get the thing to stay running long enough to move it further. I had it towed home. I initially suspected CPS because I've seen that so many times on this forum. What happened when your CPS failed? I would think that P0335 thru P0344 would point directly to CPS, not the codes I have...

BTW, mine is also a 2000 4.0L auto, but with 85k.

mark d.
 
Now I'm screwed. Found a thread here: http://ultimatejeep.com/Forums/viewtopic/p=54311.html
that indicated this combination of codes could appear with a misaligned or bad cam pos sensor. I wondered why it wouldn't throw a cam pos sensor code instead, but then realized if it was off a little, the engine still might run but the timing would not be quite right. So, I pulled the sensor connector and then cranked the starter. Viola, P0340, cam pos ckt malfunction. Swap out the cmp for a new one, still no start, same code thrown. crap. I've run out of ideas. anyone got any thoughts?

cbwymore, did you change out the cmp (not just the ckp)?

For all you earlier model xj owners, the 2000 has the DIS and the cam pos sensor (cmp) replaces the distributor. It uses an adapter in the block that can be rotated like a distributor, but has the sensor on top instead. The combination of the crank pos sensor (ckp indicating top dead center) and the cmp (indicating which stroke was compression) are used to sync the timing.

mark
 
Probably a dumb question since I've never had to deal with this on either my curent 2000 or past '01, but: have you replaced the coil rail?

The code suggests to me that it's failing or has failed. While this may be a multi-layered problem involving other components as well, try swapping in a known-good one, resetting the computer, and seeing what happens.
 
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You guys may not believe this, but the oil pump drive / cam pos sensor drive is almost completely siezed. It was so tight that it spun the housing just enough to completely hose the timing. The clue was the fresh mark in the otherwise dirty drive housing, right at the fingers of the hold down clamp. You should be able to turn the housing if you loosen the clamp, but I could not turn it. I took the drive out and could not turn the shaft by hand. I sure hope it didn't damage the cam gear. The gear on the drive looked ok, but man, there must have been some serious force at work.

The drive is held in like a distributor and must be aligned with TDC in a fashion similar to a distributor. Unlike my old muscle car, there are no plug wires so there is no way to verify timing with a timing light. Apparently there is a procedure for doing this with the DC scan tool. Boy I need a FSM.n I used some scribe marks and the marks made by the clamp to guestimate the initial position of the housing. Low and behold, the thing started and ran. It wasn't quite right, still rough and would stumble bad just a bit off idle. I loosened the clamp and tweaked the housing just a little bit. Too much either way and it would die. However, at one point, I think I came real close to correct and it ran smooth again. I was actually able to drive it around the block and it felt normal. I still have a P0340 code, so I scheduled an appt at the dealer next week for "fuel system synchronization". That's the procedure haynes calls out after monkeying with the distributor drive. Let's hope thats the end of it.

The only thing that bothers me is, why did the drive fail in the first place? Thursday evening, I had a 2.5 hour commute averaging 8 mph due to snow. I wonder if all that idling and then the deep freeze that night did it in?

casm, I don't know why I didn't go down the road of the coil packs, probably because I always hear about the CPS, never about the coils. Plus I found that link about the CPS and distributor drive on that other board (see previous post).

cbwymore, you may want to check into this failure mode...

I'll update once I am done at the dealer this week.
 
g13092, when my Crank sensor failed the jeep died and left my wife on the side of the road. It would crank but no fire and the dash gages would not register. The Crank sensor had shorted, after replacing it everything was fine.

I just finished replacing the Cam sensor, which I had to wait 3 days to get, and no change... it fired up I drove around the block thinking it was fixed, shut it off and now no start.

Before I replaced the Cam sensor I was getting the P0340 code. I don't see any signs of the oil pump drive moving...

Interesting though is this happed the day after coming back from 5 days in central Oregon where the temperatures got down to the single digits this was a 150 mile trip each way. I also have noticed a small amount of oil on the garage floor under the Jeep.
 
ok, it will not even start now. I noticed the cam sensor isn't parelel with the block, which it was before. I checked and marked it before replacing the Cam sensor. Sure enough the oil pump drive has moved, probaly 1/8" counter clockwise looking down from the PS fender.

g13092, did you replace the oil pump drive?

I need to get this rig back on the road asap. Thanks.
 
cbwymore,

Yup, that was the solution, to change the oil pump drive.

If you can get the engine to TDC on the compression stroke, it will be the safest way to make sure everything lines up for the swap. You can do it with the crank anywhere in its cycle, but you need to carefully note the position of the shaft on the old part before you take it out. The drive has a pin hole in the housing and the internal half-moon sheild. With a punch or toothpick through those holes and the engine at TDC, the drive should almost drop right in. with the notch for the sensor at at the rear. Keep in mind that the heilical cut in the gears will require a slight twist as the drive drops down. You have to twist it the opposite way before hand so that the sensor notch points to the rear when the drive drops down. If you don't account for this, the drive will end up one tooth off. One more thing, the end of the drive drops into a slot on the oil pump. If these don't line up, the drive won't drop down all the way. Pull out the drive, use a long screwdriver to tweak the position of the slot, then drop it back in. I had to do this a few times. If you've ever worked with an old distributor on just about any vehicle, this is exactly the same thing.

So, the odd part was getting it dialed in. I had to guess where to position the notch in order to start the engine. I used the markings made by the hold down clamp as the oil pump drive slipped in order to guess how far back to turn the new drive as compared to the old one. If you found TDC exactly, you should be able to use the holes and a punch or toothpick to eliminate this guesswork. I started the engine, loosened the clamp, and twisted the drive until the engine ran right (just like timing with an old dist and no computer). There wasn't much play, a little too much one way or the other and the engine ran like crap or died. When it was spot on, the thing ran like a top. Rev the throttle a little after each adjustment to see if you have it right. Mine idled fine but couldn't rev up at all if the adjustment was off in the slightest.

I left the batt cable off last night and today I have no codes. I'm pretty sure it's perfectly fine, but I don't wanna drive it far until I have the dealer do the "fuel system sync" with the DRBIII scan tool. I'll update Weds night with the results of that.

One of the things that baffled me was that so few people reported this. Then I realized 2000 was the first year for the DIS, prior to that it was all distributors. I searched today and found that seizing distributors are a little more common, but not as common as crank pos sensor. It made me feel a little better that its not something else wrong with my engine that may come back to haunt me next week. I then disassembled the old pump drive tonight. With the roll pin out, the gear slid right off and the thrust washer looked good. When I tapped the shaft out, the upper bushing came out with it, it was really tight on the shaft and may have rotated in the housing. The lower bushing was fine. The shaft has a spiral slot to help oiling the lower bushing. There is no provision for oiling the upper bushing. There were bits of bushing strewn about inside the housing. What a silly design. I would like to have taken the new oil pump drive apart and had the upper bushing treated with some sort of tfe coating, but I need to get this back on the road and I am tired of working in the freezing garage. Maybe I'll get another one of these 80k miles from now, treat it and replace the one on there now :)

Oh, lastly, for posterity, I had birds chriping under the hood early last week. Noticed it two days or so before the "event". It happened when cold and went away as after just a few miles. I figured it was just the belt tensioner. Searches on failed distributors revealed that similar squeaking preceeded those failures, too.

Hopefully my adventures will help you save some time getting your XJ back on the road! Good luck.

Mark D.
 
I pulled the new cam sensor off after the oil pump drive moved and the brand new sensor is toast. It is mangled and the half-moon sheild is bent... I don't know that I can get the pump drive lined back up again...
 
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Wow, that's unfortunate. The sensor must not have been on there quite right for the half-moon to contact the sensor. I suggest finding TDC on the compression stroke of the first cylinder, then using the pin holes on the oil pump drive to get things aligned. Hopefully you can get the thing to start by trial and error with the cam sensor rotation, but if not, you'll probably have to get it to a dealer to have them use the DRB tool to align the sensor.
 
Had the XJ at the dealer yesterday morning for the "fuel system sync" proceedure. They said it was 30 degrees out. That is either bogus or the 30 degrees is with respect to crank rotation. I found that I had onl about 1 degree of acceptable adjustment of the actual oil pump drive. No indication of a gasket. The thing doesn't run any different now. At least I know I don't have it set at one end of the spectrum where I'll have problems in the heat of the summer...

Also, I heard the bird chriping noise last night on the way home. To make sure it wasn't the new oil pump drive, I whipped it into N and reved it up a bit. Noise didn't change. I even turned off the engine and coasted. The noise was the same until I slowed down too much. Whew, the noise is definitely not from the engine. Only happens for a few moments when cold, so I'm not going to go looking for demons. Still have a new rad to install when it warms up (or the old one gives out...knock on wood).

Mark D.
 
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Hey g13092 I just sent u a PM. Same problem here. Seems like a fairly common thing.... well at least not unheard of. Any chance of getting a P/N or price and place?

Thanks,

Gabe
 
Sorry about that. As I intended to document this experience for posterity, I shoulda put the p/n in an earlier post. The p/n is 53010615. I got it at the dealer for ~$55.
 
Thanks for the P/N and the PM. I am ordering it online today. I wanted to make sure that was the correct part. Hopefully I can get my XJ back up before the next snow storm. Thanks again.

Gabe
 
ok I took out the old drive assembly and it was missing 4 teeth creating a flat spot. I guess that would create a problem. I bought the new one and tried to put it in. It was off enough that I should try and find the correct timing. I do not have a timing mark so I am not sure how to time it. I know about pulling the #1 plug and waiting to feel for the compression in the cyd. but I have never done that before, tonight I thought I had it but.... nope. I suppose I will need to pull the oil pan off to get the 2 teeth out that I couldn't get. Any advice? I ran out of time so I could not finish the job and I am out of town for work till the weekend... I will get a picture of the part and post it. It is amazing that I had such a catastrophic failurefrom one part. Well thanks for your help thus far and any additional info would be great.

Gabe
 
wulf711 said:
I bought the new one and tried to put it in. It was off enough that I should try and find the correct timing. I do not have a timing mark so I am not sure how to time it. Gabe
Gabe, what year is your XJ? I've just changed the distributor on my '89 XJ and it was a fairly straight-forward procedure (when you mark things before you remove them). The timing mark on an '89 is a small notch on the crankshaft vibration damper (it lines up against a series of notches on the engine block).
 
It is a 2000 with the distro-less ignition. It has a sensor where the distributor used to be. I need to find TDC on it. The original gear was sheared off so it was not in the proper position.
 
SHE LIVES.... I replaced the oil pump drive assembly and she stared right up. the idle is a little rough so I will be dropping it off to the stealership to get it fine tuned but I can drive it there.... Thanks for all of the info that this thread provided. I am going to try and get pictures of the gear that had four teeth shaved off of it. I used a magnet to pull out the teeth from the pan. I am going to get a heavy duty magnet to try and pull out any other shavings in the pan. I will pull the man in the spring when there is not 6" of snow on the ground.

Gabe
 
Sorry to dig up an old thread but I am having similar problems.

This week the Jeep is becoming harder and harder to start on a cold engine (after sitting all night, or sitting all day and cooled off). I turn the key like always and it takes about 5-7 seconds of cranking for the engine to finally start running. Once the engine is running, there are no other signs of a potential problem.

Does this sound like a crank sensor problem? The specs are a 99 4.0, almost 88K.

I'm gonna need this thing to make several 100 mile one way trips next week....dont need it takin a dump on me....thanks fellas.
 
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