Diagnose rattle under shift knob?

[truckeejeeper]

Gotcha. Well the clutch disengages ok. But man is there a rattle/squeak with the clutch in. No matter the gear. When I rev it, the noise picks up speed. So I'm assuming it must be the TB. But supposedly the shop just put in a new one, to replace the old NEW one. So.. is it just a trash component always? It's a LUK clutch. If it's not the bearing, maybe something is out of alignment...? Everytime I shift, I want to reach under the shifter a smear some grease on something, bc it's so annoying...

[RCP Phx]

Well you need to have a long talk with the shop! You would think that the second time would be enough and would also replace the pilot bearing while they are in there lust to rule it out!

[Anak]

Originally Posted by RCP Phx

Well you need to have a long talk with the shop! You would think that the second time would be enough and would also replace the pilot bearing while they are in there lust to rule it out!

+1

Something isn't right, and the shop should have already tried to make it right.

The shop should also be capable of diagnosing the problem, and should have been trying to do so while they had things apart. They should have been able to hand you the old "new" throwout bearing and show you what was wrong with it. And if they themselves could not find something wrong with that bearing they should have spent some time trying to figure out if something else was going on. They also should have test driven the vehicle, and accordingly should have found that things were still not fixed, at which point they should have been curious and should have pursued further diagnosis. The fact they did not do these things calls their intelligence and character into question.

Whether or not you let them continue to work on your vehicle is a decision you will have to make, but a discussion with them is certainly in order. It could just be that they assigned your job to a tech who can't find anything with two hands and a map. That happens. Or it could be worse, and the entire operation is a cluster.

This is the challenge with paying for services. The longer I live the more I find that too many of those who provide services are working beyond their level of competence.

[truckeejeeper]

Following up: Anak - I agree with you 1000%. I think the art of diagnosing a problem is being lost, in most shops around where I live. Usually they just plug new cars in and look for the reader. I've taken my Jeep to 10 diff shops around here, and got it back with the same problem not solved, usually just with a new part thrown on. I've gotten a lot of, "I don't knows." Idk it was easy, I'd have figured it out myself. That's why I brought it in to a "pro." It's usually not a good sign when I drop it off and the guy pulling it into the garage grinds the hell out of my gears just putting in over the lift. I could rant on, but going in to a shop is about my least favorite thing to do. But I don't have a garage and mine is my DD, so I need to have big things done.

In any case, to this shop credit (where I have been going on and off for 20+ years,) the owner jumped in jeep with me right away after I brought it by for a listen. He couldn't hear what I was hearing, but he put his clutch guy in it with me and we drove around the block. He DEFINITELY heard it. So he said they had replaced the throwout bearing unit, which is a sealed unit, so he is eliminating that. He said it may be the transmission? I'm not sure how that could be. But the owner was like "leave it here right now, we need to make this right." I couldn't do that, so I'm bringing it back next week. They 100% seem committed to solving it, free, but I will want more details as they go through it.

I'll keep everyone posted. Really curious what this spinning/grinding/rattling could be. (With clutch pedal IN, regardless of gear. Pedal OUT, in neutral, is dead quiet smooth spinning sound.)

Stay tuned -

[RCP Phx]

When the clutch is pushed in, the transmission doesn't even turn a bearing or a shaft so that eliminates the transmission from any possibility! You are not getting any good mechanics there!

[truckeejeeper]

I hear you RCP! Agree. So, following up more- I was driving it and this is ridic I know, but I just noticed that the 4wd shifter is in the 4wd-HI location. And it won't go into 2wd-HI location. Just wont move up. I can get it down into N and 4LO. I tried the backing up trick (a lot.) The 4wd-part time light is not on. I lifted the front and the front wheels don't turn. So I'm pretty sure I'm in 2wd. But the shifter is stuck. And, I know this doesn't make sense, but the squeaking/creaking I hear when the clutch is in, sounds a lot like the noise my transfer case makes when I'm driving in 4wd. Don't know whats going on here, but it's another issue that needs to be resolved. I don't know how it got in the 4wd position, I'm not the only one to drive it lately tho.

In any case, I brought it back to shop, they are def noticing the noise is makes with the clutch in, no arguments there, and they think it's got to be the throwout bearing (of which they have installed 2 new ones now.) They are totally wanting to replace the bearing/unit again, under warranty. It's a LUK clutch. Of course we'll try it again, but 2 bad/new bearings seems rare...

Of course, suggestions very welcome ...

thanks for all thoughts. Wish I had a garage lol

cheers

[Anak]

The factory shift linkage is an overcomplicated fluster-cluck. I ditched mine for the Boostwerks version and am much happier with it. Good motor and trans mounts may be required however. The factory version will allow for more slop than will the Boostwerks version.

That said, you may be onto something. If the shop did not get things properly aligned when they reinstalled that linkage that might be the problem. The shop would have had to deal with that linkage when they did the clutch and when they went back in for the throwout bearing. The shop probably needs to start by figuring out why you no longer have full travel on the shifter. Fix that and they may end up resolving the rattle problem in the process.

[truckeejeeper]

Ok,update here. Jeep back in shop. I'm sure they re-assembled the transfer case linkage wrong so thats why the shifter is in the wrong place. They are fixing that. Also, they are replacing the clutch/throwout bearing for the 3rd time. They say everything looks fine though. But it certainly was not fine. They are replacing the pilot bearing bushing, which they say is the only thing they have not replaced in there yet. Any thoughts on this being the possible issue?

I also ordered the Azzy shift linkage, So I'm gonna install that later and get rid of the whole linkage soon.

thx for thoughts

[truckeejeeper]

Anyone got any experience with aftermaket pilot/throwout bearings? Centerforce, etc. My new clutch is a LUK. Maybe they are shipping w crap bearings now. idk.

[Anak]

The pilot bearing is one thing, the throwout bearing is another, and if your throwout bearing is hydraulic that adds another level of complication to the picture.

I can't recall getting a replacement pilot bearing with a clutch kit. It has been over 10 years since I last had to do a clutch job (knock on wood), but I don't recall ever receiving a pilot bearing as part of a clutch kit. Replacing the pilot bearing is one of those "going the extra mile" steps that tend to get ignored. The pilot bearing should not be a high wear item. That said, our vehicles are at the age where it should be considered and given a critical eye.

Throwout bearings do tend to come with clutch kits, and I hold the ones in the kits in especially low regard. The P.O. of my XJ used one of those kits with its bearing and the failure of it came hard and without warning. There is a picture of it in this thread: https://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1148562

I replaced that POS with a Timken and it has been fine ever since. I expect there are fewer options if your bearing is hydraulic.

If it were me dealing with all this I would be replacing the T-case linkage first and seeing what difference that made.

[truckeejeeper]

Thanks for all this info. Looking at the links. The throwout bearing they have been using is a National. Not one you listed as good, so I'll look to buy an SKF or TIMKEN. I will consider all this info, and update thread how things are turning out. Thanks always for the great info

[truckeejeeper]

shop has informed me that SKF owns National. Anyone know anything about this. They are confident in it.

[truckeejeeper]

OK, I've done some internet recon. For the 1991, I'm seeing the only options as National and Timken. (leaving out crown, etc.) National does seem to be the SKF distributor. That said, Amazon reviews of National throwout bearings were just OK, about 80%. Many ppl happy, others (in critical reviews) listing the exact issues I am having: rattling and noisy after 1 wk, 1 months, 6 months, immediately, etc. Some photos showing how "off-center" they are right on opening box. So even though its National/SKF, seems like a Chinese made crapshoot. Couldn't find any reviews of the recent Timkens. One reviewer states they got a Timken and it went bad in 3 months. In any case, I ordered one, and will inspect when it gets delivered.

For those interested, parts info:

TIMKEN Part #619003

NATIONAL Part #619003

I will update this thread. Also, any more info always welcome. Getting worried there is just no manufacturer of a decent TB anywhere anymore. PITA

- TJ

T

[truckeejeeper]

UPDATE: Ok, I received the Timken TB. I gotta say, it looks pretty similar to the National. Nothing on the box says where it was manufactured. The box just says "Timken parts are carefully chosen from select manufacturers." Not encouraging. Both TBs have plastic bodies and are plastic/metal in all the same places. I had both side by side. Both spun well and bearings looked centered. Honestly, the National felt a little more "solid." The metal parts looked a tad more smoothly finished, and the bearing part felt a hair less "jiggly." If you gave me both in a blind test just to evaluate by holding them, I'd have chosen the National.

So that's the one I chose. I'm just going with my gut. It just looked/felt better. Not sure what that means with the internals, no way to know.

I did see my dismantled transmission at the shop. They did pull the pilot bearing assembly and the pilot bearing was pretty shot. Def loose around the shaft. New one is nice and snug. It is a National but feels fine on there.

fingers crossed. Will report results, if anyone is following.

- TJ

[jeep ride]

Hope they get it fixed right for you thanks for the update