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  #1  
Old January 25th, 2007, 13:31
wilsmick's Avatar
wilsmick wilsmick is offline
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valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

okay, i have an 0331 head with some pretty severe issues. yes, i've researched thoroughly. also, i'm new to internal engine work and diagnosis. most of what i'm writing i have only learned about in the last few days. don't assume i know stuff (i'm really bad at figuring out acronyms). sorry this is soooo long, but i figured i'd try and get as much relavant info into the first post as possible.

my simple question - WHAT THE HECK CAUSED ALL THIS?

i know i wouldn't bother reading a post this long but PLEASE READ ON! i swear, it's mostly relavant stuff (mostly)

vehicle - 2001 Cherokee Limited - 4.0 w/ 93K - no mods or wheelin trips for this one.
i live in MA, we have 10% ethanol in the gas, i use 87 octane and change my oil regularly. the oil pressure (20psi at idle, 40psi at speed) and temperature (200 to 210) have been fine sine i bought it with 65K. no changes (even through everything you're about to read).

symptoms - the thing is throwing misfire codes like crazy. MIL (or CEL) light blinking continuously unless at idle. the engine feels like its hesitating very badly or missing. it's apparent at idle and all the way through the rpm range - loaded and unloaded. engine vibration is worst under load at low rpm. it is smoother at some speeds and very bad at others, but always there.

all this is happening REALLY fast. it started monday night (3 days ago) and I'm still on the same tank of gas as when all this started. note that the symptoms were present during the injector cleaner procedure. the engine uses no fuel from the tank, only from the cleaner stuff, so its definately not just bad gas or something. at first i thought it was just some moisture in the fuel. i stopped at the nearest gas station and added some dry-gas. it just kept getting worse. at this point, the engine goes into the rev limited safe mode after about 2 mins of driving (maybe less).

i thought the noise its making was a real bad valve tap, but some experienced people have told me that it undoubtedly the exhaust valves not seating. the #1 and #5 cylinders are dead. i can unplug the injectors and there is no noticable difference in the way it runs. the dealer told me they wanted to do their valve rotation procedure (tsb 009-003-03) to fix it. i payed for the injector cleaner procedure and then rotated the valves myself. i saw the tell-tale lines on the valve stems on 5 (1,2,3,4,6) of my cylinders. i also noticed a little milky residue in the valve cover. i did the valve rotation, changed the plugs and the changed the oil and filter (added a pint of Marvel's Mystery Oil). i also had a friend offer to borrow one of the dealer type fog machines to decarbon the combustion chamber. on the way to his house, one of the intake valves started sticking open too (only about a few miles from his house). this is definately most loud and noticable under load.

we fogged it last night and did the injector cleaner stuff again (BG44 i think). the intake valve started seating again briefly during the fog, but towards the end, it wasn't seating again. we took the plugs out to pressure test and do a leak down, but the pressure tester fitting wouldn't reach the plug threads. the plugs (which have about 100 miles on them) are burned black.

so through all the efforts i'v made to fight the supposed carbon issue, the symptoms have just kept getting worse.

i started poking around here and have found lots of "intersting" info about the 0331 head i have. reminds me of the POS Bendix ABS systems they used back in 91. anyway, i'm not sure if the head is definately cracked or not. i haven't noticed any smoke from the tail pipe and its not overheating even a little. i have been noticing some coolant loss. possibly relevant is the fact that i replaced the radiator, water pump, hoses, belt and thermostat last week. (the radiator was leaking, the rest was just for completeness). i figured the apparent coolant loss was due to air pockets filling in the cooling system. still thinking it could be. i'm only talking about maybe 2 to 4 cups since the initial fill.

the main symptoms are the missfires, noise and vibration.

so, off with it's head tonight, and decision time after i see whats really going on.

my options are:
1) valve job on my existing head (assumming no cracks)
2) remanufactured 0331 head
3) remanufactured 0630 head

right now i'm leaning heavily towards the 0630 option (regardless of what i find tonight). making brackets to hold the coil pack rail will be a piece of cake.

has anyone actually done this swap?
will the cam from the 01 work properly with the 0630 head/valve set-up?
will i pass emmisions after this swap? (would love some first hand info in this case, i'm in MA)
do the 00+ exhaust and intake manifolds line up with the ports from the 0630.
anything else you know of that i'd need to watch-out for?

i'm not considering this for the possible hp gain, i just don't like the thought of dealing with this ever again. my last 4.0 (90 xj) made it to about 290K on oil changes alone. what gives?

thanks for reading the whole thing. any thoughts?

-Mike
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'01 XJ, Limited - Stocker (w/ 0630 head)
'89 SJ - 8" SOA, 36" IROKs, High-Steering, Rear Discs, NP208 swap + other junk.
'90 XJ - RIP - 3" lift, 31's (dead, buried, but not forgotten)
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  #2  
Old January 25th, 2007, 15:22
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asykes asykes is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

try doing a pressure test on the cooling system if it wont hold pressure ur head gasket could be leaking inside and running in when engine is running u may smell antifreeze burning i had similar problems with a Chevy cav
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  #3  
Old January 25th, 2007, 15:27
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wilsmick wilsmick is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asykes
try doing a pressure test on the cooling system
how is this done? bring it to a mechanic?
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'01 XJ, Limited - Stocker (w/ 0630 head)
'89 SJ - 8" SOA, 36" IROKs, High-Steering, Rear Discs, NP208 swap + other junk.
'90 XJ - RIP - 3" lift, 31's (dead, buried, but not forgotten)
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  #4  
Old January 25th, 2007, 17:19
a7273chargerguy a7273chargerguy is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

well,you already know that those particular years are prone to cracking.it sounds to me like you are lying to yourself.it's more than likely cracked.i don't know about the swappability(?)of earlier year engines but 99's have good reviews.swap it out and get back on the road
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  #5  
Old January 25th, 2007, 19:00
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UNCC_99XJ UNCC_99XJ is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a7273chargerguy
well,you already know that those particular years are prone to cracking.it sounds to me like you are lying to yourself.it's more than likely cracked.i don't know about the swappability(?)of earlier year engines but 99's have good reviews.swap it out and get back on the road
Yes they are prone to cracking, but its seeming to be hit or miss as to if they crack. I think casm is on the right track with the possibility that there was just a bad batch, and not all are bad.

That being said, a pressure test on the cooling system can be done very easily. They make cooling system test kits that are available at most parts stores.

The fact the CEL is blinking, makes me think something is blocking it. How is your cat? A blinking CEL is a BAD THING, and you should NOT drive your Jeep untill you can get it fixed as you may be doing serious damage to your engine. This is even stated in the owners manual.

The foam you are seeing could be from short distance driving. I've seen foam develop in other vehicles that suffer from extreme short distance driving (not getting warmed up all the way, or only getting warmed up for a couple of minutes).
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-'99 Sport, RE 4.5" and a few other things
-'13 Performance Blue Ford Focus ST. DD & Race Car.
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  #6  
Old January 25th, 2007, 23:06
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wilsmick wilsmick is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

well, i definately found a crack.
other observations:
1) the intake manifold is completely coated in oil and the intake valves even had pools of oil on top of them.
2) about half of the rockers were galled in the bearing area were they ride against the pivots.

does anyone see how this relates to the head crack? the oil wasn't very foamy or anything, but the rocker cover did have some more of that milky residue in the cover again. i just cleaned it out and changed the oil (adding some marvel mystery oil) about 100 miles ago.
__________________
'01 XJ, Limited - Stocker (w/ 0630 head)
'89 SJ - 8" SOA, 36" IROKs, High-Steering, Rear Discs, NP208 swap + other junk.
'90 XJ - RIP - 3" lift, 31's (dead, buried, but not forgotten)
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  #7  
Old January 25th, 2007, 23:45
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j99xj j99xj is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

I'd say a 0630 or a 7120 head swap would be a good idea for you at this point.

Might as well do a port/polish and match the manifolds up to the new ports for extra performance.
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  #8  
Old January 25th, 2007, 23:54
wilsmick's Avatar
wilsmick wilsmick is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

is it possible that coolant in my oil caused my cam to fail and that all these valve issues aren't really from carbon deposits, but from a wiped cam?

anyone know how to check this? preferably from the top of the engine.
could i check the travel on the pushrods? would it make sense that all the intake pushrods should have the same travel and that all the exhaust pushrods should too?

just an idea. i would hate to miss something like this and then have to pull the head again right after i rebuild it.
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'01 XJ, Limited - Stocker (w/ 0630 head)
'89 SJ - 8" SOA, 36" IROKs, High-Steering, Rear Discs, NP208 swap + other junk.
'90 XJ - RIP - 3" lift, 31's (dead, buried, but not forgotten)
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  #9  
Old January 26th, 2007, 07:50
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Flash Flash is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

first ya need to now the cam "lobe" lift then us a dial indicator and you will know real fast if its bad!

flash.
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  #10  
Old January 31st, 2007, 11:27
wilsmick's Avatar
wilsmick wilsmick is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

Just a follow-up. The exhaust ports in the 0630 head are SOO much larger.
So the stock exhaust manifolds don't completely cover the ports.
The slots that are not covered are about 1/4" wide by 1" long.
Not sure what I'm going to do now, but I'm flying out to Jackson Hole tonight to do some skiing for the weekend though. Guess I'll figure out it out sunday night.
Any suggestions? The manifolds are definately castings.
__________________
'01 XJ, Limited - Stocker (w/ 0630 head)
'89 SJ - 8" SOA, 36" IROKs, High-Steering, Rear Discs, NP208 swap + other junk.
'90 XJ - RIP - 3" lift, 31's (dead, buried, but not forgotten)
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  #11  
Old February 8th, 2007, 09:45
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wilsmick wilsmick is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

well, i'm back from my trip and still messing with this thing.
I was considering just buying a header for the 0630 head, but i can't find one that will also fit the '01 double pre-cat style exhaust. Anyone know of any out there? I'm also considering just fabbing up a custom header myself. Cost seems to be getting up there. Any advice?
__________________
'01 XJ, Limited - Stocker (w/ 0630 head)
'89 SJ - 8" SOA, 36" IROKs, High-Steering, Rear Discs, NP208 swap + other junk.
'90 XJ - RIP - 3" lift, 31's (dead, buried, but not forgotten)
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  #12  
Old February 8th, 2007, 10:36
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Flash Flash is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

Do's your jeep have 2 up stream o2 sensor (2.......one in each header pipe exit?)

Why not just buy a header for that head and if you have two o2 sensor just at 2nt hole and bung so you have 2 sensors again..........the computer want know it's sniffing the same pipe.............or will it. Hmmmm..................NO o really don't think it would matter, hopefully some one with more knowledge about this will chime in.
I real don't thing it would mater....some one correct me if I'm wrong!!!!!!



flash.
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  #13  
Old May 22nd, 2007, 21:13
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wilsmick wilsmick is offline
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Re: valve carbon or 0331 head issue? 0630 swap?

so, i just wanted to follow-up. the cost of a custom header got really rediculous. i got a sheet metal shop to make me an adapter plate. it actually worked out really good. check it out.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=919384
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'01 XJ, Limited - Stocker (w/ 0630 head)
'89 SJ - 8" SOA, 36" IROKs, High-Steering, Rear Discs, NP208 swap + other junk.
'90 XJ - RIP - 3" lift, 31's (dead, buried, but not forgotten)
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