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What type of welding wire for roll cage ?

chris420

NAXJA Forum User
Location
California
I am going to start my D&C cage install and was wondering what type of welding wire I should use for the floor plates and cage. I am using a Miller 180 with 75/25 mix. Any pointers would be appreciated it's my first cage install.

Thank you.
 
I am going to start my D&C cage install and was wondering what type of welding wire I should use for the floor plates and cage. I am using a Miller 180 with 75/25 mix. Any pointers would be appreciated it's my first cage install.

Thank you.

it's all mild steel no trick er70s-6 or lincoln L-56 .
 
Thank you do you know what size wire I should use for the floor plates?
 
Just a tip... running smaller wire (.023) will let you put more heat into the weld/base metal, which means better penetration for your voltage setting, which is a good thing... especially for critical welds. It takes less heat to melt the smaller wire and, because less metal is getting deposited at a time, that extra heat gets more time to "burn in" and grab more base metal.

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How much welding have you done? A cage isn't really where you want to start learning.a broken weld in a roll could have serious consequences.


I learned by building my Jeeps trailer then rebuilt 75% of my already built XJ ...lol... of the few things I did not rebuild or modify with extra beef the rear Claytons 14 bolt truss/link bridge was one of them I had really never wheeled hard prior to the re build and the first trip to Carnage that rear 14 bolt truss had all 4 sides of the tube to axle welds on the driver side pretty much pop off leaving us to ratchet strap the axle down and re weld the link bridge back to the housing with Two Optima batteries in the V-notch then turn around and drive out in Front wheel drive. Those were the welds of a well known 4x4 shop at a $100 hr labor rate ...If you understand a few easy basics when welding a cage for a slow speed XJ is an acceptable project...None of my beginner welds have failed I have had 3 maybe 4 of the shops fail at $100hr . Sure a top notch welder is going to do better , but you are not likely to get that from most shops ...lol...just a looooong wait and huge bill for shit work .
 
Just a tip... running smaller wire (.023) will let you put more heat into the weld/base metal, which means better penetration for your voltage setting, which is a good thing... especially for critical welds. It takes less heat to melt the smaller wire and, because less metal is getting deposited at a time, that extra heat gets more time to "burn in" and grab more base metal.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I was wondering about this as .023 wire seems to penetrate and leave better looking welds. However D&C recommends .35 wire for the cage. I was thinking of using .023 on the floor plates and .35 on the tubes.
 
Wire diameter is directly related to it's amp carrying capacity , which is why door charts top it out at 3/16 and being a smaller diameter means it needs a much higher wire speed to do the same job as just .030 . If you're not working with thicker than .188 then you can weld it all with .023 no question ..But 023 due to the increased wire speed wears out the feeder assembly faster and is not suited to your thicker stuff...at least safely...READ YOUR DOOR CHART a Miller has one and will tell you what you can weld with the given wire diameters in a given process
 
I was wondering about this as .023 wire seems to penetrate and leave better looking welds. However D&C recommends .35 wire for the cage. I was thinking of using .023 on the floor plates and .35 on the tubes.

As long as your welder is hot enough to get 100% penetration with .035 (usually a 220V model), then you're golden. For instance, I made a bumper with a 110V welder and started getting much better coalescence when I switched to .023. It just wasn't hot enough to deal with .030 or .035 the way it needed to. My opinion is that they tell you to use .035 to make sure you get enough filler metal into your weld. However, that filler metal needs to be able to get into the root of the joint. Adding filler metal quickly on top of your base metal doesn't necessarily mean it's burning in and making a good weld. Back on the 110V subject, I made some darn good looking beads (in my less-experienced days) with that welder that ended up breaking just by dropping the piece on the floor. Why? Because it piled a bunch of weld on top of the base metal and didn't burn in correctly. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what size wire you use... but again, as long as your welder is hot enough to get a good burn. Wire speed charts are a good reference for a starting point, but I've rarely found them to be ideal for all situations. More often than not, I find myself using a slower wire speed for a given voltage setting than is recommended by the chart, simply because I get better results by giving the filler plenty of time to heat up and burn in before I keep adding more. I'd rather make multiple passes that I know are solid rather than one big one that isn't doing any good. Yes, using .023 with a higher voltage setting requires a bit more feed speed, but the life of my welders wire drive unit isn't my concern when I'm putting a roll cage together.
 
As long as your welder is hot enough to get 100% penetration with .035 (usually a 220V model), then you're golden. For instance, I made a bumper with a 110V welder and started getting much better coalescence when I switched to .023. It just wasn't hot enough to deal with .030 or .035 the way it needed to. My opinion is that they tell you to use .035 to make sure you get enough filler metal into your weld. However, that filler metal needs to be able to get into the root of the joint. Adding filler metal quickly on top of your base metal doesn't necessarily mean it's burning in and making a good weld. Back on the 110V subject, I made some darn good looking beads (in my less-experienced days) with that welder that ended up breaking just by dropping the piece on the floor. Why? Because it piled a bunch of weld on top of the base metal and didn't burn in correctly. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what size wire you use... but again, as long as your welder is hot enough to get a good burn. Wire speed charts are a good reference for a starting point, but I've rarely found them to be ideal for all situations. More often than not, I find myself using a slower wire speed for a given voltage setting than is recommended by the chart, simply because I get better results by giving the filler plenty of time to heat up and burn in before I keep adding more. I'd rather make multiple passes that I know are solid rather than one big one that isn't doing any good. Yes, using .023 with a higher voltage setting requires a bit more feed speed, but the life of my welders wire drive unit isn't my concern when I'm putting a roll cage together.

Wire size ultimately matters because it is directly related to the amperage it can carry thus the heat it can put into the metal .
 
Wire size ultimately matters because it is directly related to the amperage it can carry thus the heat it can put into the metal .
The machine's voltage ("power") setting determines how much voltage is going through the weld puddle, regardless of wire size or feed speed. The machine has internal regulators (rheostats?) that control amperage to provide the voltage demanded by the power control knob.

For example: If your machine is set at 23V, it's going to automatically adjust the amperage to deliver 23V, regardless of wire size or speed.

Your statement that amperage capacity is directly related to wire size - assuming that you're referring to how much can be delivered by the machine - is simply untrue. The design and capacities of the machine determine that. That's why there are bigger machines and smaller ones. People who need more amperage (heat) buy bigger machines.

If it was as simple as using larger wire, we'd all just be able to go buy some .050+ wire, spool it into our harbor freight 110V machines and be able to weld with the same abilities as top-of-the-line Millers. Using larger wire doesn't necessarily mean our machines are capable of melting it AND the base metal... At least properly.

Larger wire is capable of carrying more amperage. You are correct there. But, that also means it requires more amperage (heat) to melt it. Because of that, more of the amperage being delivered by the machine is required just to melt the wire. That means less heat gets transferred to the weld puddle. As I said before, as long as the machine is capable of producing enough amperage to ALSO heat the base metal enough to get 100% penetration, then there is no issue with using larger wire.

Welding both sides of a tube joint (as with a cage) is basically impossible, so transferring sufficient heat to the base metal is absolutely necessary and priority 1 in my book.

Using smaller wire makes that easier.

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Not sure what you read , But what I said was a given wire size has a limit to what you can weld eith it as it has an upper limit of amperage it can work at ...023 is not suited for metal thicker than 3/16th ...of course ig your machine does not have the power to weld thicker it means nothing . As stated earlier .023 can weld everything on the project up to 3/16th...if you don't have the power to run thocker wire you don't have the machine for thicker than 3/16th ..at least in a single pass .
 
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The machine's voltage ("power") setting determines how much voltage is going through the weld puddle, regardless of wire size or feed speed. The machine has internal regulators (rheostats?) that control amperage to provide the voltage demanded by the power control knob.

For example: If your machine is set at 23V, it's going to automatically adjust the amperage to deliver 23V, regardless of wire size or speed.

Your statement that amperage capacity is directly related to wire size - assuming that you're referring to how much can be delivered by the machine - is simply untrue. The design and capacities of the machine determine that. That's why there are bigger machines and smaller ones. People who need more amperage (heat) buy bigger machines.

If it was as simple as using larger wire, we'd all just be able to go buy some .050+ wire, spool it into our harbor freight 110V machines and be able to weld with the same abilities as top-of-the-line Millers. Using larger wire doesn't necessarily mean our machines are capable of melting it AND the base metal... At least properly.

Larger wire is capable of carrying more amperage. You are correct there. But, that also means it requires more amperage (heat) to melt it. Because of that, more of the amperage being delivered by the machine is required just to melt the wire. That means less heat gets transferred to the weld puddle. As I said before, as long as the machine is capable of producing enough amperage to ALSO heat the base metal enough to get 100% penetration, then there is no issue with using larger wire.

Welding both sides of a tube joint (as with a cage) is basically impossible, so transferring sufficient heat to the base metal is absolutely necessary and priority 1 in my book.

Using smaller wire makes that easier.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Amperage and penetration is truly determined by wire speed. IDK what machine you're using (miller 211) but there is no "automatic adjustment" strictly from a voltage setting.

Voltage and wire speed create a correct parameter which create a proper bead profile and penetration when adjusted correctly.

This is strictly for MIG/FC as obviously a TIG or SMAW weld is controlled strictly from an amperage setting and arc length.



sounds like you know what you're talking about though.. not trying to sound like an elitist jerk
 
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..at least in a single pass .

Totally agree with ^this^... Without getting into weaving, etc. But that's a convo for a different thread. :cool:

Amperage and penetration is truly determined by wire speed. IDK what machine you're using (miller 211) but there is no "automatic adjustment" strictly from a voltage setting.

Voltage and wire speed create a correct parameter which create a proper bead profile and penetration when adjusted correctly.

I respectfully disagree that amperage is determined by wire speed, but I agree that penetration can be affected by it.

There is absolutely and undoubtedly an automatic adjustment that takes place as long as the trigger is pulled. This is true for any MIG/FC machine. I learned this by paying attention to the digital readouts on a multi-process machine (CC/CV) in my welding classes. Ours was a Miller.

When welding with SMAW, we select a desired amperage (CC [constant current]) based on how much heat we need. Because arc length (resistance/ohms) constantly varies while making a weld, the laws of electricity state that voltage must be constantly adjusted to maintain a constant amp (current) demand. This was reflected in the readouts on the machine: amperage fluctuated very little, while voltage varied drastically by making changes to arc length in the demonstration. There is no "arc length" setting on the machine and it'd be awfully difficult to adjust it ourselves while we're welding if there were... so the machine takes care of that for us.

Using different sized rods is a good representation of how CC works. For example, using a 3/32" rod at 90 amps will make a hotter, smoother weld than using an 1/8" rod on the same amp setting. Why? Because 3/32" rods require less heat to melt, so more heat gets transferred to the puddle/base metal. It'd be more appropriate to set the machine at, let's say, 100 amps for an 1/8" rod in the same scenario.

Sound familiar?

The same is true with MIG/FC machines, but they use constant voltage (CV) instead of constant current. Similar to SMAW, there is no setting for arc length (resistance), so the machine compensates by constantly adjusting the amp output to give us the voltage we need.

We do have a setting for wire feed speed, but it's important to understand that, although it CAN affect penetration for any given wire size, it does NOT affect the amperage outputted by the machine. It is there so we can match the power setting to the wire size we're using (i.e., the "bead profile" you're referring to). This is how charts are made and why different size wires have different speed settings. It's also easy to confuse this as a fluctuation of amperage, but it's not... and here's why:

Bigger wire generally requires less feed speed than smaller wire for a given power setting.

If feed speeds were a representation of amperage output, then wouldn't we want to increase our amps for bigger wire? Why don't the machines tell us this?!

Because that's not how it works.

Anyone who has used a MIG/FC machine and had too low a wire speed setting has seen their wire ball up and fall off the end of the gun... maybe into the weld... maybe onto the floor... maybe into that tiny crack in the seam of your glove. In contrast, too high of a speed setting makes the wire shoot into the weld too quickly, causing it to pop and throw sparks everywhere (raise your hand if you've got burn scars).

If amperage fluctuated with wire speed, then neither of these situations would ever happen.

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I have a Miller 180 it's a 220. I must be welding correctly as I have built the rock rails, frame stiffness and rear bumper tire carrier that have bee hit by large bolders and have held the weight of the vehicle. What I have experienced when fixing cracks in my floor pans using .035 wire is blow through even at the lowest settings. All of your input has been really informative. That being said it seems like the wire size = amount of filler that is applied. If I don't want to blow through the floor I will need to turn the machine down or keep the wire on the floor plate only to hit the floor panel quickly then back to the floor plate. I know there is a lot of variables.
 
I have a Miller 180 it's a 220. I must be welding correctly as I have built the rock rails, frame stiffness and rear bumper tire carrier that have bee hit by large bolders and have held the weight of the vehicle. What I have experienced when fixing cracks in my floor pans using .035 wire is blow through even at the lowest settings. All of your input has been really informative. That being said it seems like the wire size = amount of filler that is applied. If I don't want to blow through the floor I will need to turn the machine down or keep the wire on the floor plate only to hit the floor panel quickly then back to the floor plate. I know there is a lot of variables.

If you use a smaller wire like .2x It will be less likely to blow through. The unfortunate side effect of the less expensive welders is the lack of amp/heat control. Any time I try and weld sheet with my Lincoln 180 with a-e settings I make a mess. Hell I make a mess regardless.... who am I kidding. :gag:
 
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