How bad was my toe?

I've got a 97 with a 4.5 inch lift. Lift and all steering links are pretty new, maybe been on half a dozen trips with them. The other day I got death wobble (DW) getting on the freeway, which has never happened.


Read on here that out-of-balance tires and toe angles would be the first place to start. Well I needed new tires anyways, so bought some new ones and got them road force balanced. Just got back from Big-O who did an alignment and they said my toe was out of whack.


I'm going to torque everything down and try to recreate DW this weekend to see if that's fixed, but curious how bad the toe issue actually was (see attached image) , since I don't know much. Any insight is appreciated.

Holy shit you guys, I cannot figure out how to upload this scan of the alignment report... Clicking on the Insert Image button just asks for a URL? How do I just upload the image?!

You can't, it sucks.

What's your caster angle? I was recently messing around with caster angle on my new axle and got way too much and that resulted in DW. Dialed it back to 6.5-7 degrees and that solved my issue.

Are your draglink and track bar roughly the same angle?

You have to upload the image to a 3rd party site like imgur and then link from there.

Lol bummer. See below:


Before
L(Camber)=0.7 R(Camber)=-2.2
L(Caster)=5 R(Caster)=5
L(Toe)=0.05 R(Toe)=-0.2
Total Toe = -0.16
Steer Ahead = 0.13


After
L(Camber)=0.8 R(Camber)=-2.2
L(Caster)=5 R(Caster)=5
L(Toe)=-0.06 R(Toe)=-0.08
Total Toe = -0.14
Steer Ahead = 0.01

Thanks Rob... That's annoying. See link for report:
https://imgur.com/a/9Sj4IMT

The toe definitely was not the cause of the DW. The initial toe was actually correct. All they did was move the steering wheel left and magically both toe numbers were fine. I doubt they actually adjusted your tie rod. If they did it was a tiny adjustment. Everything looks good minus that right camber...could be a bent axle or C. Or bad BJ but Big O would have told you if a BJ was bad.

Check for play in all joints. And make sure the track bar and drag link are parallel.

I don't know if it matters but my steering wheel was crooked with respect to the tires. Seems that they've straightened things out now. Does that affect you interpretation of the report?

Big O and most shops set the toe in degree's and per the manufacturers specs. If your running any tire size other than stock then your toe-in is still off and should be corrected. I agree on the caster issue and that should be fixed also.

If stock style steering id run the toe as is it toes out slightly through suspension travel.

Wj or any style with a solid bar tire to tire can run zero or close to zero.

Stock style steering in my opionion has lots of steering joints to twang death wobble through is in itself prone

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

To close the book on this, I ended up torquing all suspension bolts down. Looks like the two bolts on the underside of the track bar bracket were a bit loose (as an aside, are both of those 'nuts' the bolts thread into supposed to be welded in? The one towards the front of the car spun so I got a wrench on it to tighten the bolt).


Took the steering damper off too and noticed that had no resistance, so I need a new one of those too (thing's pretty new... Bummer). I drove the rig around without the damper on potholely back roads and on the freeway. She feels solid. Between new tires, road force balance, alignment (such as they actually did one), and torquing everything down, seems the DW is cured. Couldn't replicate the DW, even on the one on-ramp that caused it in the first place. I'll buy a new steering damper, bolt it on, and call it good. Thanks for the help!

Evan03 said:

If stock style steering id run the toe as is it toes out slightly through suspension travel.

WJ or any style with a solid bar tire to tire can run zero or close to zero.

Stock style steering in my opinion has lots of steering joints to twang death wobble through is in itself prone

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Factory Toe spec for those of us who run WJ knuckles/steering on our XJ's:


Jeep WJ Factory Alignment Specs

Parameter
Front Total Toe: MIN spec: 0 degrees / MAX spec: 0.25 degrees


1/4"
convert to decimal
1 divided by 4 = .25

1/8"
converted to decimal
1 divided by 8 = .125

1/16"
converted to decimal
1 divided by 16 = .0625

Remember, these are stock specifications, based on factory tire size, wheel offset/back spacing, etc.

When tire size increases, so does the force applied to the steering components as the vehicle is propelled down the road, which is attempting to push the leading edge of the tires apart.

My real-world, first-hand experience running WJ knuckles/steering on my rig for over a decade with 295/75/16 tires on an 8" wide wheel with 4" of backspacing, is that my tires have been happy with 5/16" total toe-in (.3125 decimal). I've been performing my own garage alignments for decades and my tires get rotated and rebalanced every 4,000 miles.

Tread wear is even with no feathering on the outer tire edge (feathering would indicate excessive toe-in) and my Jeep tracks straight and I can cruise at 75mph while confidently steer with only a thumb and finger on the wheel.

Bottom line, factory toe specs are for stock rigs. It is logical to run slightly more toe-in with larger than stock tires, regardless of your steering configuration.

BTW,I recently picked up this tool to make setting toe even easier.

Jeep WJ Factory Alignment Specs

Parameter
Front Total Toe: MIN spec: 0 degrees / MAX spec: 0.25 degrees


1/4"
convert to decimal
1 divided by 4 = .25

1/8"
converted to decimal
1 divided by 8 = .125

1/16"
converted to decimal
1 divided by 16 = .0625

Click to expand...

Not quite correct. 1/4" equals 0.25" which does NOT equal 0.25 degrees. The inch measurement of toe in/out will change with tire size but degrees will not. Your 0.3125" toe in is equivalent to about 0.52 degrees of total toe in based on the size of tire you mentioned. The link below explains it really well.

https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm

Ol Blue said:

Not quite correct. 1/4" equals 0.25" which does NOT equal 0.25 degrees. The inch measurement of toe in/out will change with tire size but degrees will not. Your 0.3125" toe in is equivalent to about 0.52 degrees of total toe in based on the size of tire you mentioned. The link below explains it really well.

https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm

Click to expand...

Correct, didn't mean to mix degrees and inches, I meant to type decimal. I've edited my post.

For self-alignment, I've never felt the need to calculate degrees and have focused on inches. The conversion link is a good one, I've used it in the past for reference and corroborates my position of not focusing on stock specs when working on a modified rig.

If dealing with a vehicle where a variety of tire sizes may be used, it seems to me that using toe angle is more universal than inches of toe. However, its interesting to consider whether the optimal toe angle varies with tire width or size as suggested here.

maxbraketorque said:

If dealing with a vehicle where a variety of tire sizes may be used, it seems to me that using toe angle is more universal than inches of toe. However, its interesting to consider whether the optimal toe angle varies with tire width or size as suggested here.

Click to expand...

RCP Phx said:

Big O and most shops set the toe in degree's and per the manufacturers specs. If your running any tire size other than stock then your toe-in is still off and should be corrected.

Click to expand...

Tire width and backspace figure in on steering effort but doesn't change the toe requirement.

RCP Phx said:

Tire width and backspace figure in on steering effort but doesn't change the toe requirement.

Click to expand...

It looks to me that XJEEPER is suggesting otherwise, although tire size and offset may be a minor factor compared to other aspects of the vehicle. The stock y-link steering is going to move the wheels towards toe-out on braking and compression bumps, especially for a lifted XJ, so a little more toe may be a good idea for those.

I didn't see anybody mention what toe is required, just that degree's and inches are totally incompatible!

maxbraketorque said:

It looks to me that XJEEPER is suggesting otherwise, although tire size and offset may be a minor factor compared to other aspects of the vehicle. The stock y-link steering is going to move the wheels towards toe-out on braking and compression bumps, especially for a lifted XJ, so a little more toe may be a good idea for those.

Click to expand...

When the vehicle is moving, linkage components flex causing a change in alignment angles. This is classified as “Running Toe.”

Running toe should be zero to maximize tire life and achieve the least rolling resistance. The usual tendency is for the tires to turn outward while the vehicle is in motion, so most vehicles are designed with a static toe-in setting.

The static toe-in setting will become zero as the linkage flexes when the vehicle is in motion.

Tire size and wheel offset are relative in that with larger tires and/or more negative offset from factory tire/wheel dimension, the more force is applied to the leading edge of the tires and thus, more flex is applied to steering components as the vehicle moves down the road, requiring an increase in toe-in to counter this force and arrive at zero "running toe".

My statement regarding degrees VS inches, is relative to ease of ability to measure toe-in when performing a garage alignment.

If one is going to an alignment shop to pay them for this service, then their machine will calculate toe in degrees. If one wants to perform their own alignments and spend the extra time calculating toe in degrees, nothing wrong with that.

FWIW, I've used local alignment shops in the past to align my Jeeps post-front end work, and the results have been mixed.

More often than not, I was left disappointed to find out that they ignored the modified suspension, larger tires, etc and set the alignment to stock specs and my Jeep handled like sh!t.

The last shop (which marketed themselves as the "4WD alignment specialists") never centered the steering wheel, my Jeep pulled to the right and exhibited driveline vibrations over 30mph.

I corrected all of these issues in my garage and have never engaged an alignment shop on my Jeeps since.

My son and I recently built and installed JK axles under his XJ, including SFR 4 Link bracketry, custom DOM links, custom DOM trackbar and steering. We aligned his Jeep in the garage and it tracks straight down the road with zero bumpsteer and handles better than a stock XJ.

Do what works for you.