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  #16  
Old June 25th, 2017, 20:19
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

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Originally Posted by md21722 View Post
Does the later model procedure not work? Something like turn the flat head screw to 11 o'clock and put the dizzy in at 1 o'clock and it will wind back so everything lines up and the hold down lines up perfectly not work on Renix?

I know that's the procedure on post Renix era engines and if it don't work something is out of time and it won't work with a poop.
Totally different as the deally bob inside a Renix dizzy has NOTHING to do with cam timing or spark.

The indexing was a problem when new and is on rebuilt units.
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  #17  
Old June 25th, 2017, 21:22
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by md21722 View Post
Does the later model procedure not work? Something like turn the flat head screw to 11 o'clock and put the dizzy in at 1 o'clock and it will wind back so everything lines up and the hold down lines up perfectly not work on Renix?

I know that's the procedure on post Renix era engines and if it don't work something is out of time and it won't work with a poop.
It worked perfectly on my Renix, 87 XJ-Wagoneer 4.0, 11 years ago installing a rebuilt Autozone Dizzy. The one I am working on a super rich issue with. My old one was throwing oil into the cap 11 years ago.

Its put the dizzy in at 4 o'clock and it turns and stops at 5 o'clock.The rest you got right.
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  #18  
Old June 25th, 2017, 21:27
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

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Originally Posted by cruiser54 View Post
Sacrifice a cap and do the procedure.
Why, mine is already located where that procedure says it should be set at? It has worked there for 11 years?

That write up you have use to say in one of the versions I have seen over the years, to only do it if the rotor was not locating in the proper place. Mine is and has been already.
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34 MPG , '85 2WD Cherokee Pioneer with custom installed, 64 hp, 2.2 L Nissan SD22 Diesel 5 spd Manual; & 4 Renix XJs, '87 Wagoneer 4.0, 4WD, 89-Cherokee, 4WD, '87 Cherokee 2WD, & '89 Cherokee Pioneer 2WD, all 4dr. #2091
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  #19  
Old June 25th, 2017, 22:36
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

I read the TSB years ago, it said as best as I can remember, that there was a batch of cams that where the distributor drive and the initial cam setup was a slight mismatch. The rotor tip is broad, but to the best of my understanding is that ECU can run out of timing if the rotor tip isn't near the middle of the setup envelope.

Timing chain slop, worn gears or whatever can cause initial setup rotor position to change a little. My 89 was pretty far off, I corrected it.

After market cams for years were speced to the early Renix cams where the clocking was a little off and the distributors also needed to be re indexed.

One thing most everybody forgets about is that distributor shaft shear pin. It doesn't have to break completely. It can break and the sharp pin ends can kind of catch again fairly solidly, the rotor has moved from initial setup position but you may never know unless you look (check the indexing). The wifes 87 had a CPS issue, something weird happened, one cold morning it flashed back through the TB, maybe ran in reverse a little and blew the check valve cover off the booster. Idled like crap afterwords, I initially thought it had damaged something internally in the engine. On a hunch and having learned on old Dodge and Chevy carburetor motors, where shaft pin breakage was fairly common, I grabbed the rotor and twisted hard, the pin had snapped but caught and jammed again almost solid.

If it isn't something common and normal it is time to start looking at the odd and unusual.

Last edited by 8Mud; June 25th, 2017 at 22:43.
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  #20  
Old July 11th, 2017, 19:47
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

Well I know more now, there is rotational limit on the dizzy. Mine was out of limits, The sheer pin holding the gear to the shaft on the dizzy on mine was failing, and finally died, completely today, but not before I got it running well at 3500 rpm for 3 minutes that confirmed it was not the valve train!!!! So no need to pull the head, :-)

It was also mildly hitting the sensor inside.
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34 MPG , '85 2WD Cherokee Pioneer with custom installed, 64 hp, 2.2 L Nissan SD22 Diesel 5 spd Manual; & 4 Renix XJs, '87 Wagoneer 4.0, 4WD, 89-Cherokee, 4WD, '87 Cherokee 2WD, & '89 Cherokee Pioneer 2WD, all 4dr. #2091
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  #21  
Old July 16th, 2017, 18:20
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

As Spock once said "when one has tried all the logical explanations, one must consider the illogical ones", LOL. You were dead on sir, the sheer pin failed on mine, big time!!! It finally sheered completely and I could spin the top of the dizzy rotor/assy.

The new one has very little slop or rotational play at all. Changing the dizzy got it running again. But it went back to a back fire like when this all started at 3000 rpm, and shake at idle it did not have before. I eye balled the indexing (cut one ear off so I could rotate it), and the back fire is gone, I got it up to 3800 rpm with no problem. Did not push my luck any higher yet. Now I need to solve the mini shake at idle, which is new. I may cut up a cap and fine tune the location in case I went a 1/16" or 1/32" too far and caused the idle miss. The timing is 15 degrees at idle right now and got up 38 degrees at high rpm per the MT-2500. God I love that tool. I also did one last super sealing job on the MAP sensor vacuum line at the throttle body, as I did not trust that I had an adequate, perfect seal there yet.

I did some thinking on this and with 6 cylinders and 360 degrees, 360/6 = 60 degrees. So if the ECU can advance the spark timing from say 14 degrees to 38 degrees (maybe more) 38 - 14 = 24 degrees of change.

60-24 = 36 degrees of room for error in the Dizzy indexing. Assuming a cap pin to pin diameter of 2-7/8"" (?) I get 9" circumference. 9/360 = .025"/degree

24 degrees.... .025"/degree x 24 degrees = .60" of space between the centers of each cap pin, which is about the length of the rotor tip, maybe less?.

Then with that huge rotor tip, and the gap closed up some by the radius of the two pins in the cap the chances of miss firing go up very fast as the ECU plays with the timing of the spark when you get on the edge where the tip is equidistant from both cap pins. So I can now see the need for precision location of the dizzy, as the ECU has a wide range of degrees (at least 14-38 that I saw today on my MT-2500) to advance the spark limiting any possible slop in the rotor alignment to the cap pin.

But I still have a mystery as to why the last distributor worked for 70,000 miles with out indexing by cutting the ears and rotating the dizzy, as I installed both, and I used the standard tooth guide that leaves the rotor aimed dead on at the #1 pin at TDC. The Cruiser54 method that came from Jeep, has the end of the rotor just barely at the end of the #1 pin at TDC. Which is about 20-30 degrees or so by my estimates.

Perhaps I had the right combination of other defects in mine over the years to get away with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mud View Post
One thing most everybody forgets about is that distributor shaft shear pin. It doesn't have to break completely. It can break and the sharp pin ends can kind of catch again fairly solidly, the rotor has moved from initial setup position but you may never know unless you look (check the indexing). The wifes 87 had a CPS issue, something weird happened, one cold morning it flashed back through the TB, maybe ran in reverse a little and blew the check valve cover off the booster. Idled like crap afterwords, I initially thought it had damaged something internally in the engine. On a hunch and having learned on old Dodge and Chevy carburetor motors, where shaft pin breakage was fairly common, I grabbed the rotor and twisted hard, the pin had snapped but caught and jammed again almost solid.

If it isn't something common and normal it is time to start looking at the odd and unusual.
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Quote=8Mud: "Go ahead and put up the best fence you can build, I'll bet on some Mexican with a few dollars of nails and a pile of scrap lumber."
34 MPG , '85 2WD Cherokee Pioneer with custom installed, 64 hp, 2.2 L Nissan SD22 Diesel 5 spd Manual; & 4 Renix XJs, '87 Wagoneer 4.0, 4WD, 89-Cherokee, 4WD, '87 Cherokee 2WD, & '89 Cherokee Pioneer 2WD, all 4dr. #2091
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  #22  
Old January 22nd, 2019, 19:42
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

this thread is old im aware of that....
I did the reindex on my renix today so i came across this thread and have to wonder if your timing chain stretched necessitating you to reindex your previously installed distributor?
quote ecomike
"But I still have a mystery as to why the last distributor worked for 70,000 miles with out indexing by cutting the ears and rotating the dizzy"
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  #23  
Old January 22nd, 2019, 19:47
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cruiser54 cruiser54 is offline
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

They were indexed incorrectly from the factory. Some worse than others.
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  #24  
Old January 22nd, 2019, 20:33
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

well since ive revived this thread im gonna take a pic of where my rotor sits now after cutting the ear off my distributor and reindexing for search purposes.

During my reasearch i have yet to see a pic of where the rotor sits after reindexing...(with a window cut in the cap)
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  #25  
Old January 23rd, 2019, 03:45
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

Here ya go. http://cruiser54.com/?p=68
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  #26  
Old January 23rd, 2019, 09:29
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

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  #27  
Old January 23rd, 2019, 12:16
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

My guess would be that the prior one already had a sloppy loose sheer pin, or was corrected in the aftermarket or WTFK? IIRC the one I replaced was labeled Motorcraft? But I thought it was Durajunk buy over 11+ years ago that my ex-ex mechanic from an era long ago put in. Too many moons ago on that...

Or the rig ran so badly for so long as I sorted out the earlier problems from 2003 on (3-4 issues I had to figure out on my own..., that were not covered any where) that I was never able to truly stress the system till this last 18 months? I also changed the plugs about 18 months ago from Bosch platinum that worked great till #1 and #2 started oil fouling. I moved to the slightly hotter NGK plugs cruiser54 was so fond of 5+ years ago. They solved the oil fouling issues (way better than I thought possible), and maybe that was/is affecting spark timing....enough...

I was also seeing low oil pressure as the miss fires let gas built in the 20W50 oil I use, and the gas was thinning the oil. I now have 35-55 PSI year round, instead 18-55 PSI. Small change in plug spark plug timing, and thicker versus thinner oil???? Finding and fixing Uncle Bobs odd throttle adjustment to the throttle body arm? Who knows. All of the above maybe

First 10 years I could almost never get it over 2500 rpm...Long story in 15 years of old threads here. The dizzy issue became obvious at high rpms at first only after installing the new one. But if it was the timing chain, it would be an issue now, and is not. I can stomp on the gas in park or drive and gun it to 4500 rpm like a barely broke in engine. 293,xxx miles now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlander View Post
this thread is old im aware of that....
I did the reindex on my renix today so i came across this thread and have to wonder if your timing chain stretched necessitating you to reindex your previously installed distributor?
quote ecomike
"But I still have a mystery as to why the last distributor worked for 70,000 miles with out indexing by cutting the ears and rotating the dizzy"
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Quote=8Mud: "Go ahead and put up the best fence you can build, I'll bet on some Mexican with a few dollars of nails and a pile of scrap lumber."
34 MPG , '85 2WD Cherokee Pioneer with custom installed, 64 hp, 2.2 L Nissan SD22 Diesel 5 spd Manual; & 4 Renix XJs, '87 Wagoneer 4.0, 4WD, 89-Cherokee, 4WD, '87 Cherokee 2WD, & '89 Cherokee Pioneer 2WD, all 4dr. #2091
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  #28  
Old January 23rd, 2019, 14:57
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

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Originally Posted by 8Mud View Post
Oh wow awesome!
thats exactly what i was talking about.
Thanks!
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  #29  
Old January 23rd, 2019, 16:51
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

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Originally Posted by outlander View Post
Oh wow awesome!
thats exactly what i was talking about.
Thanks!
One thing I did learn is that a new Dizzy, and old cam, have almost zero rotational slop!!!

At least on my rig, which tells me from checking two other Renix rigs I have that the sheer pin slop may be a common issue, no one has ever talked about, if there ever even noticed it????

Only reason I know about it, is mine had about 3/8" play out on the end of the rotor (about 20 degrees???), and has zero on the new one and once it sheered it got my attention, LOL as it was 360 degrees .
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Quote=8Mud: "Go ahead and put up the best fence you can build, I'll bet on some Mexican with a few dollars of nails and a pile of scrap lumber."
34 MPG , '85 2WD Cherokee Pioneer with custom installed, 64 hp, 2.2 L Nissan SD22 Diesel 5 spd Manual; & 4 Renix XJs, '87 Wagoneer 4.0, 4WD, 89-Cherokee, 4WD, '87 Cherokee 2WD, & '89 Cherokee Pioneer 2WD, all 4dr. #2091
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  #30  
Old February 3rd, 2019, 19:48
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Re: Renix distributor rotational play limits?

all i can say is wow!!!

i highly recommend anyone with a renix that hasnt reindex their distributor to do so asap...

especially with a 5 speed.Believe it or not my transmission always felt notchy but now it shifts like its supposed to.

I guess it had something to do with the synchro speed difference between the input and countershafts due to the motor wanting to lag between shifts?.

Also noticed that after i shift the bucking is completely gone after you let the clutch out.

Truly amazing how much an improperly indexed distributor can affect tranny shifting!!!
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