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Important Evans Creek info-

IXNAYXJ

IXNAYXJ

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Wherever the next race is.
Here is a quick report from John H and my trip to Evans Creek. While it is posted in another thread here, I thought it was worth making a specific thread for. Some of the comments are redundant, but it's still good info. Pay specific attention to the Law Enforcement aspect:

Bumperetc013.jpg


We came in the back way and went up the 120 trail first, something neither John nor I had ever done. And probably won't do again. VERY easy, with the biggest challenge being dodging the overgrown brush.

After that dissapointment, we actually found a decent beginner's trail just down the road, #199. There were a couple of challenging tight corners and a couple of spots where I needed 4WD. Great spot for more stock vehicles to play.

Then we ran 519 to the Log Pile, but were unable to locate the cool obstacle we had so much fun on at Oktoberfest:

EvansCreek052.jpg


I screwed around on the logs for a while, making it almost all the way through, and it was only a desire to to jack up my D/S that prevented me from getting really heavy with the stupid pedal. Still had some fun and manufactured a few yards of beauty bark. :D

After lunch there, we headed down to run 311 on the way out. When we got to the trailhead, a Forest Ranger flagged me down. He walked over and informed me he would be citing me for theft of forest property. I stared at him for a moment, dumbstruck. "Wha..What?" I asked.

He pulled a branch off my rack that had snagged on one of the more overgrown trails we'd run. Then he laughed and said he was just kidding, but did need to see my Forest Pass. "No sweat," I said and started searching around my floor boards. Sheepishly I showed him what I had:

Bumperetc.jpg


The victim of several floodings and one fire, there wasn't much left. Luckily, he said it would be okay, but to have a new one next time I came up. One of the other folks in our group wasn't so lucky and got cited for not having one.

This is where John started getting a little pissed, as it is his and my understanding that a pass is only required if you're parked or camping. John expressed his confusion, to which the Ranger (who looked as if he'd hit puberty about three hours previous) told us that they "like to look at it as a day-use fee."

Who cares what they "like to look at it as," that's not what the rules are. There was even a sign 45 feet away on the message board that read: "NW Forest Pass must be displayed on windshield when parked at this location."

"Well, I see three Jeeps that are parked right now," Dudly Doo-Right responds a little shakily. Sure sounded like entrapment to John and I; make someone pull over and park, then cite them for pulling over and parking...? Kinda shitty, IMHO. We mentioned it to him, but with no comeback, he started picking our rigs apart; flares not extending far enough to cover tires, no mud flaps, the usual.

This is where it got really funny; John's cousin (who was riding along) is a veratible law library of vehicular infraction codes (presumeably having recieved many of them himself). He (very cagily) asked the Ranger, "So the law is that the flaps have to extend to the centerline of the rear axle, right...?" Meanwhile, John is pulling out the WSP codes and reciting them, including RCWs.

"That is my understanding," the Ranger said vaugely, as if sensing the trap. "So that means your truck is in violation...right?" As if a tennis match, all eyes swept over to his FS truck, and sure enough, no flaps. It was something out of a John Grisham novel; first get them to agree with you, then make 'em eat their words. He got a lot nicer after that.

Anyway, despite this he still gave the other guy in our group the citation, but let us go. So let this be a warning; on weekends be prepared to have flaps, flares, lic. plates front and rear, and a forest pass...AT THE MINUMUM.

And beware, Matt's Tree Stump of Doom on 311 has really gotten bad. I defy anyone to take the lower, more challenging line w/o damage. So far it's 5/5 XJs that have gone through there, all Evans veterans, and all have done some damage. I got my rear quarter panel in front of the THOR guards again, and John caved in his door and scraped off some of his wood paneling.

-----Matt-----
 
John90XJ said:
We discovered the back road into Evan's is a trail in and of itself. It's steep and full of holes and not a road one would want to use on a regular basis. I can see why the Forest Service is interested in closing it.

The 120 trail they would be closing, due to the road closing that provides access to it, is not really significant. It's a loop that takes you off the road and back to it. It's not terribly difficult, maybe a 2.5 of 5.

We ran 519 to the top and then 311 to the top after spending some time speaking with a FS ranger about Forest Passes and mudflaps.

They were in the staging area at the bottom of 311 talking to everyone about Forest Passes. Matt provided him several pieces of paper that vaguely resembled some lint from his pocket after it went through the wash. That apparently was acceptable. I showed him mine from 10 feet away and he said OK. The third guy with us for the day that we met in Wilkeson was written up with a warning, no fine, because we griped that he was a licensed vehicle and we were told to stop. The Ranger told us we needed a pass if camping or parking a tow rig and they looked at it as a user fee for everyone else. He never definitively stated that one was required to use the trails in a licensed vehicle which was my argument for not needing one. There will be more on this later as I'm getting a hold of his supervisor to drill it down once and for all.

They were looking at violations of the flaps/flares rules and I'm uncertain if they can write a citation....I believe not. However, we confirmed with him that his F-150 was also out of compliance and that seemed to be an ironic state to be in while discussing this with violators. The conversation seemed to move onto things we could agree on like trail maintenance and litter control.

It was a good discussion and we made sure he remembered us. ;)

And BTW, the mutual respect policy between the Evans trees and the Woody appears to have been terminated. We rolled through the gnarly little section of 311 that has gotten so much worse over the years where you need to ride right up against the root ball. I punched in the rear door and the THOR guards worked great, once the obstacle got to them.

This picture is AFTER straightening the trim and pounding out the door from the inside with a 2x4.

evansdamage.JPG


We discussed with the Ranger getting some rock up there to fill in that section so people would use it and stay off the bypass. We'll see how that discussion proceeds.
Click to expand...
 
I think those Rangers/Peirce County Sheriffs are getting a little to power happy up there. Its a fun place to wheel, but its starting to become more of a turn off to drive all the way up there, and get hasseled for stupid small things like metioned. I know laws are laws, but at a place like that, out in the sticks, I think they are just looking at Evans as a place to cite people to draw in the lacking ends of ticket profit they cannot make elsewhere.

So now, you can't wheel without the $30 forest pass?
 
CanMan said:
I think those Rangers/Peirce County Sheriffs are getting a little to power happy up there. Its a fun place to wheel, but its starting to become more of a turn off to drive all the way up there, and get hasseled for stupid small things like metioned. I know laws are laws, but at a place like that, out in the sticks, I think they are just looking at Evans as a place to cite people to draw in the lacking ends of ticket profit they cannot make elsewhere.

So now, you can't wheel without the $30 forest pass?
Click to expand...
John was going to contact the guy's superior today and confirm the exact laws. I plan on going in and out the back way from now on; it takes about the same amount of time, is a nicer drive and bypasses the whole 311 staging area scrum.

For the record, there were no Pierce County guys up there, so I don't even know if the Forest Service can actually cite for things like flares and flaps. He also mentioned they are getting new LE folks (non-Sherriff) to do the patroling. I can't remember what town they mentioned...mayby John can recall.

-----Matt-----
 
IXNAYXJ said:
John was going to contact the guy's superior today and confirm the exact laws. I plan on going in and out the back way from now on; it takes about the same amount of time, is a nicer drive and bypasses the whole 311 staging area scrum.

For the record, there were no Pierce County guys up there, so I don't even know if the Forest Service can actually cite for things like flares and flaps. He also mentioned they are getting new LE folks (non-Sherriff) to do the patroling. I can't remember what town they mentioned...mayby John can recall.

-----Matt-----
Click to expand...

Cool, thats good to know. The back way in, is it where the first area off to the left, with the info board?

 
Just to play the "devil's advocate" (I don't do that much;) do I?) I think the more rangers up there the better. I would guess the biggest reason they are there is to keep down on the Drugs, Alcohol, Guns, and other illegal activities. They will stop everyone in order to get the time they need to check out each of the vehicles and make sure there is nothing else they can find.

Maybe I am wrong, and I know that it can be a hassle and sometime they can be down right rude and power happy ( I have had my fare share of situations like that also) but I think that as a general rule, I hope that it helps to keep the place cleaner and safer!!

Michael
 
I think part of the reason we got off so easy was we knew one another. We felt comfortable challenging him on the rules and knew that our involvement in the management process would likely help in our discussion.

That said, far more people go up there and just feel like they're being hassled by the "man".

While the back way in off the lower road is an option, we really need to build a level of understanding that we can have confidence in and feel comfortable rolling through "our" ORV park whenever we want.

I would suggest seeking them out when you see them, shake hands and introduce yourself. Tell them about what you're doing to help and let them know you want to be compliant. They have to understand that some things are worth having more than others, like our continued involvement. It's far more important than writing one of us an occasional citation for an errant flare/flap. And it's far more difficult to cite someone you know versus the guy you don't.

EDIT: I left a message for the Ranger's supervisor to discuss trail maintenance, passes and what we can do to help with trail repairs prior to the implementation of the management plan.
 
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Forest Service

There are certain Forest Service officers who are known as Level 4s. They are fully trained and backed Federal Law Officers. They drive vehicles with blue lights on them and are the only Forest Service personnel you will see carrying a gun (the Park Service on the other hand issues firearms to many of their employees and won't allow any 4x4ing on the land they administer ). They are fully allowed to enforce any Federal law they desire. In my experience they are most likely to work in cooperation with the County Sherriff and as such are more likely to detain you until a deputy arrives. But that does not lessen their jurisdiction it's just a matter of logistics as the Forest Service doesn't have jails. Most ranger districts have only one Level 4 officer and some of the smaller or more rural districts share the personnel. But please don't fail to recognize that these officers are the real deal.
As for the issuance of tickets for infractions such as failure to display a pass: I have not read the rules about these but have been told that the tickets issued are treated like an infraction. Meaning that it's not going to go on any permanent record and if you demonstrate compliance by fixing the problem it will be dismissed. From what I've been told the rules that were passed to allow the use fees also included sections that allowed any represntative of the USFS to issue such a ticket.

And the best answer to all of this: Buy a pass! Most of the money stays in the local area and is targeted to trail maintance. I will admit that hiking trails probably get a lot more attention then 4x4 tracks so while you are at it...... Go take a hike. :roflmao:

I grew up living on USFS compunds as my Father was a carrer employee from college through retirement.
 
If you get cited for not having a NW forest pass and you are using the FS lands, then that's YOUR FAULT. I don't care if you are wheeling, or camping. Just get a damn NW Forest Pass. It's only $30.

As for the ranger giving you shit for illegality of your rigs, I have NEVER had a problem up there when on the trail or heading from camp to the trailhead. When you are zipping around on the roads though, by LAW, you have to be street legal. Most of the time, they will look the other way if you are just heading down to the parking area or whatnot.

Now, if you are leaving the parking area and heading out, you get a ticket, that's YOUR FAULT. Your rig should be 100% legal. I know it's a PITA, my rig isn't 100% legal, but if I were to get a ticket, then so be it. I know the rules.

I am 100% behind law enforcement at wheeling and ORV areas. If you have a problem with your ticket. Take it to the Judge, that is what he is there for. Don't argue with a police officer/ranger. They are just doing thier job.
 
KarlVP said:
If you get cited for not having a NW forest pass and you are using the FS lands, then that's YOUR FAULT. I don't care if you are wheeling, or camping. Just get a damn NW Forest Pass. It's only $30.
Click to expand...
This is where we part company on this issue.

There has never been a definitive explanation of when one is needed at Evan's Creek. The FS website indicates it's required at the Evan's Creek trailhead as a parking pass. The kiosk on site says for parking or camping. We were doing neither. We were using vehicles licensed and legal to be on the street.

I have a pass. I displayed my pass. My problem is that they hedge their conversation and won't tell you specifically if you need one or not. If you need one the info kiosk should say a pass is required for any use or not. Based on the information available, the Jeep in our group that did not have a pass was not in violation of the FS rules.

I don't want to argue the benefit of having one, but basically it's a matter of them making it clear to every user. You either need one for all activities, some activities or none at all. Spell it out and then enforce it correctly and evenly across the board.
 
Kinda the same thing happened to us at Rimrock last week.

We ALL had forrest passes and were camped at Bakeoven flats. The ranger came down and said that we all had to pay the $5/day to camp there. We all produced our passes, and she said "oh, in that case you only have to pay HALF?"

WTF? There is no sign stating that ANYWHERE. In fact there is a sign that says NW Forrest Pass REQUIRED to camp here. All others it is $5/day.

Now I can understand if we were on a developed camping area (one with running water facilities, marked/numbered camping areas, etc.) But we were camped in the middle of nowhere with a crappy outhouse (no pun intended).

So we just blew her off. If she wanted to write us tickets, she would have and I would have taken it to court.

We didn't argue with her, just waited for her to leave and re-read the rules. By the signs on the info center, we were doing it right.
 
So it would appear that the law is pretty clear on the street legal need for "fenders" that cover the wheels. What I do not get is the whole mud flap thing. The second link below is a proposal to amend the rules to essentially say "something" to cover the wheels but I do not see this in the WAC at all. Pretty confusing. As Clinton might say, "It depends what you mean by a fender" :)

My adapted stock flares basically cover my tires but I really do not know if I am supposed to have mudflaps. Perhaps someone else has the appropriate language.

Think a big part of the problem here is the perception that people with lifted XJ's are inherently irresponsible. Law enforcement, especially junior types, have a tough enough job and often deal with irresponsible people and I suppose I can forgive them for not occasionally tarring me with the same brush. As a hiker and fisherman the Forest Pass is a great deal and I think it shows that as an individual you are willing to plow something back into what is essentially a limited resource.

Now that I have had occasion to read the law I worry more about bumpers. The rules for a stock weight Cherokee seem to be

4,500 lbs. and under GVWR24 Inches26 Inches

My rig is at 25 and 27 accordingly so I figure I will just get out and air down if i get busted. The law reads "lowest part of the bumper" as the measuring spot so one way round this would be to bolt some sort of extension to the bumper. Either that or I will have to start bolting on skid plates and stuff to get the weight up. Having said that this is a pretty unreasonable rule and mind you, a good reason not to get into legal arguments with Law Enforcement.



Has NAXJA ever considered doing any lobbying in Olympia?


http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=204-90-040


http://www.leg.wa.gov/documents/wsr/1997/21/97-21-021.htm

Cheers, Nick
 
I had a nice chat with Bob Pacific of the FS/Enumclaw office.

To use Evan's Creek, any aspect of it, requires a Forest Pass. The signage at the kiosks is incorrect and he agreed it needed to be changed to reflect a need for a Forest Pass regardless of your use of the property or length of stay, whether you're parking or running the trails.

The $30 annual pass would be the smart choice.

We also had a chance to talk about repairs to the trails and they are willing to buy fill material if we can coordinate getting it to the needed areas. We have access to a dump truck and excavator to load into smaller trailers. We would need the help to get the material to the needed areas on the trail. I know that PNWJeep is hoping to get some spots on the 311 fixed prior to our M&G in September. Maybe this is something we can team up on and do together.
 
John90XJ said:
I had a nice chat with Bob Pacific of the FS/Enumclaw office.

To use Evan's Creek, any aspect of it, requires a Forest Pass. The signage at the kiosks is incorrect and he agreed it needed to be changed to reflect a need for a Forest Pass regardless of your use of the property or length of stay, whether you're parking or running the trails.

The $30 annual pass would be the smart choice.

We also had a chance to talk about repairs to the trails and they are willing to buy fill material if we can coordinate getting it to the needed areas. We have access to a dump truck and excavator to load into smaller trailers. We would need the help to get the material to the needed areas on the trail. I know that PNWJeep is hoping to get some spots on the 311 fixed prior to our M&G in September. Maybe this is something we can team up on and do together.
Click to expand...
Good to know, John, and thanks for tracking the info down.

As to the trail maintenence, you know I'm ready whenever. Gimme a call or PM me if you want to fine tune and coordinate timing etc. This is an area I use a lot and would love to keep up in good shape. I know there are a bunch of folks on NAXJA who feel the same.

-----Matt-----
 
John90XJ said:
We also had a chance to talk about repairs to the trails and they are willing to buy fill material if we can coordinate getting it to the needed areas. We have access to a dump truck and excavator to load into smaller trailers. We would need the help to get the material to the needed areas on the trail. I know that PNWJeep is hoping to get some spots on the 311 fixed prior to our M&G in September. Maybe this is something we can team up on and do together.
Click to expand...

John, depending on when you want to do this, I have a utility trailer with lots of ground clearance that might work good for hauling materials on the trails. I'd like to help out.
 
Megawatt said:
John, depending on when you want to do this, I have a utility trailer with lots of ground clearance that might work good for hauling materials on the trails. I'd like to help out.
Click to expand...

Matt and I had a brief talk about the subject the other night at dinner, and another way to haul some materials is if someone with a MJ could help out. Rock, dirt, ect.. would be easy to get in and out of a truck. Even if someone wants to help with a Toyota, Nissa, Mazda, ect...
 
Yes on the trailer and yes on the PUs. Comanchekid has offered his well built MJ to help. We will need a lot of shovels and manual labor if we don't have many vehicles to move material. Whatever works will be great.
 
That guy was a tag a long for the old creepy guy last year. Punk then, punk now.
The rangers can only write citations for WA State Forest violations. They're not allowed to carry weapons, and have recieved multiple threats in instances like these. Hence the reason the PC Sheriff is around. Evans is far outside of any city limits. No cops will be up there but PCS for some time I'd expect.

I mentioned it two weeks ago that I was harrassed for road voilations if my vehicle moved from the campsite - from the same cop!? Also, if it's not perfectly street legal, it's not allowed on the FS roads. Watch out for that one! They've been watching Josh religiously on every outing so far this year.

"I know that PNWJeep is hoping to get some spots on the 311 fixed prior to our M&G in September." Not a doubt in my mind! HAHA :D
 
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out of curiousity, how can guys with buggies wheel up there if you have to have a street legal rig or is it a non issue?

never been up there but I have been considering the purchase of a non-street legal wheeler that I would tow to wheel, I assume if they can ticket you for no mudflaps it would be illegal for a non road going buggy to wheel also?
 
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