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  #16  
Old April 19th, 2019, 19:36
soyjer soyjer is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trippled View Post
Driven a lot of xjs that exhibit this. Never once thought it was bad to address. A lot of the problem I notice too is worn/soft springs. In reverse the axle rotates down, effectively flattening the springs (and the axle trying to move rearward from reverse) and slightly lowering the vehicle. Going to drive the opposite happens and the springs unload slightly, giving a little bit of clunk/lurch. Seems worse cold when the idle is high as it's exaggerated slightly.

Wouldn't be bad to make sure all your suspension is in good order.

I totally agree tho, one person's horrible clunk is another's...eh.
If that were my problem then pausing in Neutral (releasing the reverse tension on the drivetrain) would lessen the clunk/lurch, not increase the clunk/lurch, correct?

On mine, pausing in Neutral INCREASES the clunk/lurch.
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  #17  
Old April 19th, 2019, 23:19
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ShoeterMcgav ShoeterMcgav is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Do you have stock axles? Gears? Lockers in either axle?

Can you take a video?
Its hard to guage your clunk vs mine... with your use of caps and the tone in your posts, its like some catastrophic bang that is about to kill everyone in a ten mile radius!??
Seriously though- make a video? Post to youtube and share the link. Lets hear it?

Fwiw mine does the same thing. It's a new to me jeep, and Im not done with my maintenance yet. If I try to eaze it into D from P to R to N to D its the worst. Straight shot from R to D and its much less if at all.

I haven't stressed nearly as much about it as you have about yours though. So, I'd be hesitent to call it "the same". I checked U joints and suspension. All seems to check out so far. Ball joints up front have a little play, so that's on the short list, but not the culprit imo.
2 things-
1. I "inspected" my motor mounts... And they looked pretty good. I got a header to install, and with the drivers mm exposed decided it was one of those "while your in there" parts, so I got both sides. The drivers side was shot to all hell and fell apart after I got it completely out. Having been a flat rate mechanic, I can say its something I could've missed, if i were trouble shooting a clunk in the tranny/ rear end. Also, I dont know how else I would've known since visually it looked ok and with the pass side being pretty good, it didnt display the characteristics of SHOT motor mounts. Its still a few pieces from starting so I will have to report back.

2. I'm wanting to check backlash in the rear end, and thats not easy to do without tearing in to it. My visual and hand-on-drive-shaft-shake-violently inspections didn't reveal any lose ujoints or anything out of the norm. However, I can't put it "under load" with my bare hands. Only way to check the internals of the rear end, is to pull the shafts and crack her open. Have you paid the shop to do so?
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  #18  
Old April 20th, 2019, 07:41
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Tim_MN Tim_MN is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

A bit of background on this topic, this isn't the first time the OP has posted on this alleged transmission issue. In the previous postings there has been a lack of basic diagnostics, (differential, engine/trans mounts, rear suspension bushings) and some stubborn clinging to assumptions that do not seem to be supported either with data or basic common sense. Inspection of the gear pattern, internal parts wear and condition, and measurement of backlash of the rear differential by a differential specialist, not a general shop technician, or transmission specialists, has also been suggested more than once.

It has been explained by people that have owned more than one XJ, that the transmission behavior is within the range of "normal" for the 1980's Aisin Warner transmission technology, and that the 1980's technology XJ Cherokee is a somewhat crudely designed vehicle that tends to transmit noises though the first generation uni-body, not to mention that all XJ's are nearing or well past 20 years of age/wear/usage. Noise/vibration/harshness were not the primary AMC design features for the XJ.
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  #19  
Old April 20th, 2019, 09:56
soyjer soyjer is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

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Originally Posted by ShoeterMcgav View Post
Do you have stock axles? Gears? Lockers in either axle?

Can you take a video?
Its hard to guage your clunk vs mine... with your use of caps and the tone in your posts, its like some catastrophic bang that is about to kill everyone in a ten mile radius!??
Seriously though- make a video? Post to youtube and share the link. Lets hear it?

Fwiw mine does the same thing. It's a new to me jeep, and Im not done with my maintenance yet. If I try to eaze it into D from P to R to N to D its the worst. Straight shot from R to D and its much less if at all.

I haven't stressed nearly as much about it as you have about yours though. So, I'd be hesitent to call it "the same". I checked U joints and suspension. All seems to check out so far. Ball joints up front have a little play, so that's on the short list, but not the culprit imo.
2 things-
1. I "inspected" my motor mounts... And they looked pretty good. I got a header to install, and with the drivers mm exposed decided it was one of those "while your in there" parts, so I got both sides. The drivers side was shot to all hell and fell apart after I got it completely out. Having been a flat rate mechanic, I can say its something I could've missed, if i were trouble shooting a clunk in the tranny/ rear end. Also, I dont know how else I would've known since visually it looked ok and with the pass side being pretty good, it didnt display the characteristics of SHOT motor mounts. Its still a few pieces from starting so I will have to report back.

2. I'm wanting to check backlash in the rear end, and thats not easy to do without tearing in to it. My visual and hand-on-drive-shaft-shake-violently inspections didn't reveal any lose ujoints or anything out of the norm. However, I can't put it "under load" with my bare hands. Only way to check the internals of the rear end, is to pull the shafts and crack her open. Have you paid the shop to do so?
My XJ with this problem is a 1999 XJ 4WD, 100% stock, 98K easy (street-only) miles, 4.0L, AW4, Chrysler 8.25, open differentials, never has towed, nor been towed.

From my original post, here are the two videos of my differential while being shifted mostly back and forth from Reverse to Drive with an ~4 second PAUSE IN NEUTRAL each time. First video is with TC in 2H, second video is with TC in 4L:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLV5XDG1J90&t=28s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99t7lKHlUqw

If I do NOT pause in Neutral, then all shifts are ALWAYS gentle and smooth.

You are the first person that I have found whose XJ MAY have the same problem that mine does. If so, that could be extremely helpful to one or both of us. Before I waste any more of your time here though, I should confirm with you that your "clunk" noise is coming from your differential...as if someone is striking your differential ring gear with a hammer. If your clunk noise is coming from anywhere else, then unfortunately (for me) we don't have the same problem.

Reason for my ALL CAPS is because I have been trying to diagnose this problem for over a year now in multiple forums (in addition to the numerous trips to local repair shops), and it is hard to get responders on these forums to just answer the question that I am asking, and also difficult to get responders to actually read my XJ's symptoms and history. Most responses are responding to a problem that has nothing to do with my XJ's problem. I write that my clunk/lurch only happens at a standstill and only when shifting into Drive from Reverse with pausing in Neutral, and I always get multiple responses such as "mine used to do that when my XJ was downshifting at around 10 mph...I greased the slip yoke and it solved the problem". I do appreciate that people are trying to help, but unless they have experienced the exact same problem, their responses just don't help me with my problem. So I finally resort to ALL CAPS to try to get responders to just answer my question...doing this test takes all of about 10 seconds. The bottom line is that unless a reader's clunk can be totally 100% avoided by simply not pausing in Neutral, then it is not the same problem that my XJ has, unfortunately.

I stress over this problem because I'd like to sell my XJ, but it is difficult to sell it for any kind of a reasonable price with a seemingly undiagnoseable problem like this. The person who sold it to me over a year ago either didn't know that this was not normal, or they did and just were lucky enough to have an inexperienced buyer like me show up. At the time, I just assumed that the idle speed was too high...I learned later that that was not the case. I am honest when I sell a vehicle, and so I'd have to sell this XJ for about $2500-$3000 less than normal price to compensate for the fact that I am going to have to tell the buyer that "it may need a new transmission, or maybe even also a new differential, and maybe also god-knows-what" because of this mystery clunk/lurch. I could just keep it and avoid pausing in Neutral, but for various reasons an XJ is no longer is the vehicle that I need.

Regarding your motor mounts, it seems to me that the looser the motor mounts would be, the less the clunk/lurch there would be. To use the hammer/anvil analogy, where the engine is your hand on the hammer, the transmission/driveshaft is the hammer, and the differential ring gear is the anvil, a loosely held hammer will have a weaker blow to the anvil than a tightly held hammer would. Similarly, looser rear axle mountings should cause a lesser clunk coming from the differential, just as a loosely held anvil will create less of a clunk than a firmly held anvil would. Looser rear axle mountings would increase the "lurch", but not the differential "clunk". This analogy isn't perfect, I admit, but regardless, no amount of looseness or tightness anywhere would explain why the clunk/lurch only occurs when you pause in Neutral. That behavior is either normal for an AW4, or it isn't, regardless of how loose or tight the rest of the XJ is.

Regarding rear differential play, you can use a long screwdriver to test the play under pressure as I did...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRZIZmRVL0s

...but it really doesn't prove much as you can see, because you do need the impact of the driveline suddenly shifting into gear in order to really see and hear any noticeable possibly excessive play in the rear differential.
About 10 experts in shops have checked the differential play without removing the differential cover, and I certainly could pay a shop to remove the cover and check the play, etc., but regardless of the outcome, it still wouldn't explain why there is only a clunk/lurch when shifting with a pause in Neutral. The differential is either loose or it isn't...it can't be loose when I pause in Neutral and then tight when I don't pause in Neutral. Only the transmission could cause this difference, and that is why I am trying to determine whether all AW4's behave this way or not. If they do, then my transmission is fine and I need to have my differential rebuilt. If they don't, then my transmission still has a problem and I need to have my transmission fixed (again). For me to invest more money in either the transmission or the differential without knowing if my transmission is behaving normally or not, when the answer to that question can be determined by a simple 10 second test by other people who have AW4's, wouldn't make any sense. These forums are to get answers to our questions, right? I don't really want to be walking up to perfect strangers on the street with XJ's, asking them to do this test for me, but if I can't get answers from these online forums then I'll have to do that, I guess.

Back to your problem vs. mine, my first question for you would be if your "clunk" noise is coming from your differential...as if someone is striking your differential ring gear with a hammer. If your clunk noise is coming from anywhere else, then unfortunately (for me) we don't have the same problem.
On the other hand, if your "clunk" noise IS coming from your differential, then perhaps one of us can figure out what the problem is and share it.
I'm taking my XJ into yet another shop (a different transmission shop, this time) on Tuesday, and I'm going to ask them specifically about the "pausing in Neutral is the problem" thing, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if their answer is "depends upon the transmission...don't know about the AW4...we'd have to tear the transmission apart to give you an answer...that will cost $300, and then we can tell you how much more the actual repair will be, if it needs any repair at all". A lot of shops seem to just use their customers to pay for their on the job training.
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  #20  
Old April 20th, 2019, 10:18
soyjer soyjer is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_MN View Post
A bit of background on this topic, this isn't the first time the OP has posted on this alleged transmission issue. In the previous postings there has been a lack of basic diagnostics, (differential, engine/trans mounts, rear suspension bushings) and some stubborn clinging to assumptions that do not seem to be supported either with data or basic common sense. Inspection of the gear pattern, internal parts wear and condition, and measurement of backlash of the rear differential by a differential specialist, not a general shop technician, or transmission specialists, has also been suggested more than once.

It has been explained by people that have owned more than one XJ, that the transmission behavior is within the range of "normal" for the 1980's Aisin Warner transmission technology, and that the 1980's technology XJ Cherokee is a somewhat crudely designed vehicle that tends to transmit noises though the first generation uni-body, not to mention that all XJ's are nearing or well past 20 years of age/wear/usage. Noise/vibration/harshness were not the primary AMC design features for the XJ.
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your post above, but am I incorrect in feeling that your purpose in posting it was to:

1. Warn other readers that this I am not following advice, am stubbornly clinking to illogical conclusions, and so I will just waste readers' time if they are foolish enough to respond to my posts,

and

2. The so-called "problem" that I am describing is within the range of "normal" for an AW4?

Please correct me if the above interpretation is incorrect.
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  #21  
Old April 20th, 2019, 13:37
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ShoeterMcgav ShoeterMcgav is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quit pausing in N if you dont like it seems like yhe cure... I dont get it. Your test in N and N told you what? The u joint wasnt shot? Back lash is measured- not with a screw driver.
You cant video the "hammer on anvil" sound?

Yes mine is in the rear end.

Your theory is simply flawed. Pausing in N takes the load of the drive shaft. With out hearing it, sounds like a worry over nothing.

10 shops told you its all good?

You don't want to do whats asked to diag on the forums (this is through the web man) and check things that are possible reasons.

I feel bad this has consumed so much of your time... But your response to those helping seems to have you chasing your tail
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Last edited by ShoeterMcgav; April 20th, 2019 at 13:48.
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  #22  
Old April 20th, 2019, 13:52
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ShoeterMcgav ShoeterMcgav is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Just saw the video in 4 low. If the motor mounts are toast it will allow the drivetrain to lurch like that.. Also the low gearing is a big load... So pretty normal lurch.

Trany seems fine in those vids.. If mounts are good the carrier inside the diff would be where to look. Not convinced by the vid that it isnt normal
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  #23  
Old April 20th, 2019, 14:14
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ShoeterMcgav ShoeterMcgav is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Checking backlash and possibly adding shims to the carrier ought to tighten it up so the lurch is felt more heard less
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  #24  
Old April 20th, 2019, 14:40
soyjer soyjer is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Well, including your test, I've now got one test in this thread indicating more clunk with a pause in Neutral and one test indicating just the opposite. To me this seems like such a simple request, but people here seem more interested in addressing other concerns than in just answering my simple question.
No one owes it to me to run this test...If a person doesn't wish to then that is their right. I disagree that the test serves no purpose and have explained in detail why. We will have to just agree to disagree. If anyone doesn't want to do the test then just move on to the next thread or explain to me the terrible harm that I am causing to the members of this forum by simply asking a question that would take seconds to answer, and there is no legal requirement for anyone to do even that. If I were personal messaging members nagging them about this then THAT would be wrong, but I'm not doing that.
Has it occurred to any of you that there might be even a slight possibility that you are wrong in your analysis of me and my XJ problem? You can believe that I am an idiot, stubborn, illogical, or whatever you wish, but I have heard that before from armchair experts who turned out to be dead wrong, so forgive me if I don't bow down and defer to your opinion just because you have more experience with XJ's than I do. Even "experts" can be wrong.
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  #25  
Old April 20th, 2019, 14:51
soyjer soyjer is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoeterMcgav View Post
Checking backlash and possibly adding shims to the carrier ought to tighten it up so the lurch is felt more heard less
Thank you for running the test and reporting your results here...that makes you only one of two members willing to do that. I appreciate that.

I still maintain that the test results serve a valid purpose in determining what is normal for an AW4, and that determining that is the most logical next step for me. It sounds as if you disagree ( am I wrong?), but I do thank you for running the test, which is more than most here have been willing to do.
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  #26  
Old April 20th, 2019, 14:58
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ShoeterMcgav ShoeterMcgav is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Your mannerisms are the issue not the jeep.. Scaring people off bro
I never said anything was pointless-mentioned the screwdriver video to see what you learned, what was the point? Didnt rule out much that has been posted to look in to.

Nothing is pointless if it helps you or anyone (should have clarified).

Your data is just flawed, bottom line. We are talking about a mighty bang from Thors hammer when stopping in N before going to drive right? Why then are you adding a 4LOW video to the mix? My jeep jumps like a sob when put in gear in 4 low. Is this what you dont like? Thats normal boss.

Of all the shops... Other forums.. There is one common denominator- you.

No one here has claimed to be an expert, no one has said anything with any certainty (since we arent in the jeep), or claimed that anyone else was wrong--- that is, EXCEPT YOU.

See the theme here? We came to help and you played "I know better then you" (without checking any of the KNOWN mechanical points that exaggerate the concern) and so, less people care anymore.

Get the damn diff and all mounts checked if you cant do it yourself. GL
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  #27  
Old April 20th, 2019, 16:45
soyjer soyjer is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoeterMcgav View Post
Your mannerisms are the issue not the jeep.. Scaring people off bro
I never said anything was pointless-mentioned the screwdriver video to see what you learned, what was the point? Didnt rule out much that has been posted to look in to.

Nothing is pointless if it helps you or anyone (should have clarified).

Your data is just flawed, bottom line. We are talking about a mighty bang from Thors hammer when stopping in N before going to drive right? Why then are you adding a 4LOW video to the mix? My jeep jumps like a sob when put in gear in 4 low. Is this what you dont like? Thats normal boss.

Of all the shops... Other forums.. There is one common denominator- you.

No one here has claimed to be an expert, no one has said anything with any certainty (since we arent in the jeep), or claimed that anyone else was wrong--- that is, EXCEPT YOU.

See the theme here? We came to help and you played "I know better then you" (without checking any of the KNOWN mechanical points that exaggerate the concern) and so, less people care anymore.

Get the damn diff and all mounts checked if you cant do it yourself. GL
I posted the screwdriver video in this thread for you solely because you had mentioned hands-only strength on the drive shaft. I wasn't suggesting that the screwdriver leverage would approximate the engine, just offering it because I already had the video and it only took about 5 seconds to add it to the post. If I include something, it MIGHT help someone. If I don't, it can't. So if I even suspect that it might help someone someday, I post it. No big effort required, so why not?

Same answer as above for the 4LO video...I had it, so why not include it along with the 2HI video? I figure that readers can ignore it if it is of no value to them. I made it partly because I was afraid that if I did NOT include it (in the original post) then someone would be asking "what happens if you engage the TC into 4WD...does it still do it? Easier for me to just include the video to begin with.

As far as the 2HI video, I can tell you that when I do not pause in Neutral that the difference seen at the differential is HUGE. When I do not pause in Neutral, it is more like a smooth *movement* of the pinion rather than a jolt, it rotates less, and does not have the rebound seen in the video.

You state that my data and my theory is simply flawed, and then state "Pausing in N takes the load off of the drive shaft". When in Reverse, the load on the driveshaft is a reverse load, agreed? So is it incorrect to assume that, if all other factors were equal, since the driveshaft has to rotate farther when going from Reverse to Drive than from Neutral to Drive, that more rotational momentum would be available when going from Reverse to Drive? So then, if all other factors were equal, then the "hammer would have a longer stroke" going directly from Reverse to Drive (without pausing in Neutral), causing more of a clunk/lurch that way than if you had paused in Neutral (reducing the hammer stroke) before going into Drive.
BUT, of course, all factors are not equal. IF the transmission impeller and input shaft (plus anything else attached to the input shaft when in Neutral) are able to free-wheel and spin up in rpm when the transmission is in Neutral, then you would have to add the rotational momentum of the transmission impeller and input shaft (plus anything else attached to the input shaft when in Neutral) to the calculation, and so this mean that really only real-world tests would indicate whether pausing in Neutral would increase or decrease the clunk/lurch.

I was told by one expert shop mechanic that the transmission impeller and input shaft (plus anything else attached to the input shaft when in Neutral) do NOT free-wheel and are NOT able to spin up in Neutral, but I was told just the opposite by a transmission shop mechanic. Searching online leads me to believe that the transmission guy was correct, but I still don't know the answer.

If the transmission impeller and input shaft (plus anything else attached to the input shaft when in Neutral) are able to free-wheel and spin up in rpm when the transmission is in Neutral, then that would be a possible explanation as to why pausing in Neutral causes my clunk/lurch, BUT....in order for that to be true, then ALL AW4 transmissions would also have smoother shifts into Drive without pausing in Neutral, with the only variance between AW4's being the DEGREE of difference between pausing and not pausing in Neutral. On a really tight XJ, the difference might be virtually un-noticable, whereas on a very loose XJ, the difference would be pronounced. The only way that I have to reasonably conclude that "all" AW4's behave this way is to ask fellow Jeep owners who have AW4's in their Jeeps...preferably XJ owners, to keep things less confusing.

So the above is my reasoning for wanting to know how others' AW4's behave. If someone feels that the logic above is flawed, feel free to tell me why.

I disagree with your assessment of what has transpired in this thread, but we are so far apart on that that we will just have to agree to disagree, I guess.

My intention in opening this thread was never to engage in arguments with readers or waste their time. My only goal was included in the Title: "Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?". How could I be more clear about what I was asking for? If someone chooses to engage with me in a conversation unrelated to that specific request and we disagree, don't get mad at me for wasting your time or not taking your advice. In a disagreement, BOTH parties believe that they are correct and the opposing viewpoint is incorrect (wrong)...what's wrong with that? If you want to believe that I am arrogant for believing that my test is valid and not accepting from other members that my test is a waste of time, then OK, I'm arrogant.
I think another factor at play here is that I don't want to spend $800 (quoted) to have my differential rebuilt if the transmission also needs rebuilding (~$2500), and vice-versa. I can't afford to, or don't want to, just throw money at this XJ until this mystery clunk/lurch disappears. I'd be better off selling it to someone who has the tools and garage space to do the work themselves, and just sell the XJ to them for $3000 under normal Blue Book value. That way they could also install a locker on the rear end and do other custom work while replacing/rebuilding the transmission and differential.
Again, thanks for your test results...I really do appreciate your doing that for me. :-)
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  #28  
Old April 20th, 2019, 17:22
dktool dktool is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

I'll give you $3k under book for it, that would make about ..... FREE !
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  #29  
Old April 20th, 2019, 17:54
MickeyS MickeyS is offline
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Re: Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

This is what you should do.

You’re in california. Post the car for $2500-3500 on CL. It doesnt even sound like that big of a problem. Dont even mention it. Most Xjs lurch. Sell the truck this summer when people are looking for camping beater vehicles. Im sure its a good truck. It runs, goes into 4lo, sell it for $2k maybe if you want it gone quick and forget about it.
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  #30  
Old April 20th, 2019, 20:37
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devildog0 devildog0 is offline
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Please try this with your XJ and tell me results?

I cant remember if you posted this on Jeep Forum or Cherokee Forum but i still think youre way overthinking/overblowing this "problem" ive had 4 xjs. 3 with the AW4. They all had a bit of a clunk or lurch when shifting gears.

These things were designed and built during a time when noise vibration and harshness levels werent at the forefront of design considerations. I guess you at least supposedly got a free transmission out of the deal.

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TTC results are in... Willis Non-Tech / Off Topic 7 April 19th, 2004 09:53
The results... seanR Midwest Chapter 37 April 12th, 2004 16:58
results of the 4/3 run bugman1964 Colorado Chapter 10 April 5th, 2004 14:18


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