• Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

radiator cap in upper radiator hose?

vjarman

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Tucson, AZ
Well the guy i bought my 89 cherokee 4.0 auto from put an inline radiator fill in the upper radiator hose instead of having the expansion tank in the rear pass. corner of the engine bay. the fans are in good shape and there is no thermostat in it at the moment. this thing wont stay cool at all when im out 4 wheeling.:gonnablow i was wonderring if anyone has tried this before and could tell me how i can get this thing to stay cool. or what should i change so it will stop overheating. thanks for any info!
V.J.
 
Hmm yep it's running hot .. Do you here the fans working??? In hot temps. both fans must be working .. If your sure they are fine then check for cooling system issues such as

Bad water pump,Blockage in cooling system,bad thermostat,blown head gasket

Good Luck

Nick
 
ya the electric fan is working and the clutch fan is working. no thermostat in it right now and as of right now i dont believe the head gasket is blown, there is no milky oil or anything. thanks
 
No thermostat and you are reaching just below 260 in 15-20 minutes?????????????

1. You need to try and flush the complete system with an aggressive commercial flush.

2. As Winterbeater asked, when that hot coolant expands where does it go?

3. Check your fan clutch to see if it is even working at all.

Your XJ should function in normal driving conditions with a 195 thermostat installed. There is something seriously wrong with your system if the temperature gauge is correct.
 
I remember reading somewhere (probably on this site) that the thermostat acts as a metering device that only allows a certain amount of coolant thru the radiator so it has time to cool down. Without the thermostat, coolant flows thru the radiator too fast and doesn't have time to cool down.
 
1) Flush the entire system (in your case, I recommend the Prestone two-step acid/neutraliser flush) and refill with coolant/water mix. 50/50 is acceptable for most climes. Do not use tap water! Use distilled or reverse osmosis-filtered water (or you'll be doing this again rather quickly.)

2) The thermostat is a metering device for coolant volume flow - it's possible to have too much coolant flowing through the radiator, which means it doesn't have enough time for heat rejection.

3) When you install the thermostat, drill two 1/8" holes in the flange 180* apart. Install with holes at 12:00 and 6:00 - this will make the system purge itself of air (which can cause you trouble.) This way, you won't have to think about it.

4) Check your fan clutch. Heat the hub up with a hairdryer on high, and see if resistance to turning increases. If it does not, replace it. (You should feel significant resistance when turning the fan by hand when the clutch is hot.)

5) Check your electric fan. You're RENIX, so you can verify the circuit by finding the large sensor in the driver's side radiator tank. Disconnect the sensor, then bridge the two terminals together in the harness end with a jumper wire. Turn the key to the ON position (no need to start the engine,) the electric fan should immediately start to spin. If it does not, suspect either the relay or the fan motor proper (the relay usually goes first. It's a standard DIN/Hella relay, available pretty much anywhere for less than ten bucks. You should have a couple of spares anyhow. The relay is on the driver's side fender liner.) If the fan comes on with the contacts bridged, but does not come on when the engine is at temperature (I think it should come on around 220*F indicated,) replace the switch (it's called a "Thermal Fan Switch.")
 
it's possible to have too much coolant flowing through the radiator, which means it doesn't have enough time for heat rejection.

I'm not sure I buy the theory of not enough time to dump heat. There is certainly enough anecdotal evidence of overheating with no thermostat that is corrected by installing a thermostat or restrictor plate though. I wonder what the real mechanism is.

I can certainly see too high of a flow rate causing cavitation or turbulence and hot spots. Plus raising the flow rate would cause the temp drop across the radiator to be smaller (ie the overall temp of the radiator would be higher and rejecting more heat overall). The return water being hotter could skew where the distribution of heat transfer within the engine.

I can also see the lack of a thermostat throwing off the pumping characteristics of the water pump and getting worse flow. But in general a higher flow normally should improve the overall heat transfer. At least on paper for an ideal heat exchanger.

Now for the original poster, if its the original radiator its probably plugged up by now.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure I buy the theory of not enough time to dump heat. There is certainly enough anecdotal evidence of overheating with no thermostat that is corrected by installing a thermostat or restrictor plate though. I wonder what the real mechanism is.

It's not a theory. Heat rejection may take very little time, but it takes a finite and measureable time. If you don't allow that time, heat rejection (at least to some level) just don't happen, and you can't get heat out of the system.

The engine rejects combustion heat into the coolant, but the coolant has a limited capacity to accept it. The coolant then rejects heat into ambient air (which has a theoretically unlimited capacity to accept it,) but this takes time. If the time isn't allowed, the coolant won't be able to reject as much heat into the ambient air. If heat rejection from the coolant doesn't occur, then heat rejection into the coolant can not occur - it's elementary thermodynamics. The ambient air can accept rejected heat until it reaches the temperature of whatever is trying to reject heat into it - since ambient air is almost never 215*F, that's not a problem.

Just like on a hot day - you can't cool down, because the ambient air runs somewhere between your skin temperature (~70*F) and your core temperature (~98.6*F.) On a very hot day (ambient temperature 98.6+*F) you won't be able to cool down - because your body can't reject heat into a medium with an ambient temperature that is at or above the medium trying to be cooled. Sweat allows for this somewhat - since sweat is a collection of moisture on your skin that is allowed to evapourate, the water accepts heat from your body, which is then rejected into the atmosphere (until you cross into a location of ~80% RH or higher - and the air is unable to accept the water vapour.)

When that happens, you jump in the pool. You jump into a denser medium (more readily accepting of rejected heat) with an ambient temperature well below your core temperature (most summer swimming pools I've been in run 60-72*F - well below core temperature, and often below skin temperature.) Or, you rub something cold on yourself, usually somewhere that blood runs close to the surface (whether you know it or not. Forehead and insides of wrists are popular for this reason.) Heat may then be rejected by your body into whatever you're using - often a bit of ice, or a cold drink in a metal can (which provides additional heat sinking anyhow.)

Energy will always flow from higher potential to lower - until the lower potential is saturated, and if sufficient time is allowed for the energy transfer to take place. The more energy, the more time it takes. Batteries run until they can't generate a potential exceeding the requirements of the circuit they are feeding. This takes time. Coolant rejects heat until the ambient air won't accept the heat anymore. This also takes time.

Some energy (heat, for instance) takes longer than others (electricity, say.) Electrons move at a sizeable fraction of the speed of light - typically 70% or more, depending on the wire - while heat moves much more slowly...

EDIT - This has a lot to do with why racing engines run "restrictor plates" in place of the thermostat - they are essentially a thermostat without the poppet valve in the centre. Reason? Flow volume restriction, and heat rejection.
 
the hot coolant does just go on to ground. i will check the clutch fan today. i know the electric fan is good cause it was wired to turn on as soon as the key is turned on doesnt matter what tempature, from the prev. owner. ill flush it and go get me a thermostat either today or tomorrow. what do you guys prefer on the thermostat temp wise? 180~ or 195~? would it help my jeep stay cooler if i got the 180 thermostat since our tempatures are already starting to reach the 100+ mark? thanks everyone for the help!
V.J.
 
Aside from environmental contamination and killing neighbors cats, it seems that not having an overflow bottle will introduce air into the system every time it cools down. The purpose of the overflow is to contain the coolant as it expands out of the system, the let it pull it back in when it cools. Systems with air do not cool down well. Adding a hose and overflow might help your problems.

You should use a 195 for best fuel efficiency, and once you hit 195 temp, it won't matter what is in there.
 
Last edited:
It's not a theory. Heat rejection may take very little time, but it takes a finite and measureable time. If you don't allow that time, heat rejection (at least to some level) just don't happen, and you can't get heat out of the system.

You got me curious, so I reviewed my thermo texts on closed loop dual heat exchangers. For an ideal system, raising the flow rate always increases the overall heat transfer. It's not a linear curve, more bell shaped. Changing the flow rate obviously alters the temps of the fluid in different places of the system which may have its own consequences, but the overall heat transfer does goes up. 1 gpm of fluid passing through an exchanger with an inlet-outet temp diff of 20 degrees, is transferring the same amount of heat as 2 gpm with a 10 degree temp drop.

Certainly too low of a flow rate causes problems. If the coolant is back down to ambient temp by the time its halfway through the radiator, then the second half of the radiator isn't doing anything. Increaseing the flow rate will allow better use of the radiator (ie you can increase the flow rate and still have the same temp drop). Coolant spending too much time in the engine may heat up above boiling.

The Thermo text also discusses proper flow rate selection. Too low a flow rate underutilizes the heat exchanger surfaces. Too a high flow rate causes cavitation in either the pump or the radiator. Pump cavitation damages the pump and if the coolant is near its boiling point it can cause localized hot spots or steam pockets. If you increase the flow rate to the point of causing turbulence or cavitation in the radiator itself, its efficiency starts dropping very quickly. I think that is more likely the cause of the problem. I also noted a number of engine builders saying they use restrictors to avoid cavitation at high engine speeds.

Of course, an engine is hardly an ideal heat exchanger and local coolant temps matter quite a bit. Especially when the coolant is operating fairly closely to it boiling point.

But thats just me being anal and academic about things. I don't doubt that too high of a flow rate causes problems, but I'm thinking its cavitation thats the underlying issue and not just the flow rate all by itself.
 
You got me curious, so I reviewed my thermo texts on closed loop dual heat exchangers. For an ideal system, raising the flow rate always increases the overall heat transfer. It's not a linear curve, more bell shaped. Changing the flow rate obviously alters the temps of the fluid in different places of the system which may have its own consequences, but the overall heat transfer does goes up. 1 gpm of fluid passing through an exchanger with an inlet-outet temp diff of 20 degrees, is transferring the same amount of heat as 2 gpm with a 10 degree temp drop.

Certainly too low of a flow rate causes problems. If the coolant is back down to ambient temp by the time its halfway through the radiator, then the second half of the radiator isn't doing anything. Increaseing the flow rate will allow better use of the radiator (ie you can increase the flow rate and still have the same temp drop). Coolant spending too much time in the engine may heat up above boiling.

The Thermo text also discusses proper flow rate selection. Too low a flow rate underutilizes the heat exchanger surfaces. Too a high flow rate causes cavitation in either the pump or the radiator. Pump cavitation damages the pump and if the coolant is near its boiling point it can cause localized hot spots or steam pockets. If you increase the flow rate to the point of causing turbulence or cavitation in the radiator itself, its efficiency starts dropping very quickly. I think that is more likely the cause of the problem. I also noted a number of engine builders saying they use restrictors to avoid cavitation at high engine speeds.

Of course, an engine is hardly an ideal heat exchanger and local coolant temps matter quite a bit. Especially when the coolant is operating fairly closely to it boiling point.

But thats just me being anal and academic about things. I don't doubt that too high of a flow rate causes problems, but I'm thinking its cavitation thats the underlying issue and not just the flow rate all by itself.

Hm. It's been far too long since my own last thermo class, and I don't have a text to refer to. Perhaps I should correct that - the true answer may be on the ground betwixt us...
 
ok winterbeater thanks. i think i have one layin around from another car i might try to put in. ill go get some parts and let ya guys know.
V.J.
 
Hm. It's been far too long since my own last thermo class, and I don't have a text to refer to. Perhaps I should correct that - the true answer may be on the ground betwixt us...

Been about 17 years for me since doing any real thermo calculations. I've done some heat flow stuff on circuit boards lately though. I tend to enjoy the math/physics side of things and have a penchant for electronics. Now if you had asked about pumps, pumpjets, and cavitation that falls more in line with my day job.

The underlying physics doesn't matter much anyway. The real answer is that contrary to what common sense might tell you, having no thermostat or insufficient restriction can cause overheating. Just too much anecdotal evidence to say otherwise.

:wave1:
 
Been about 17 years for me since doing any real thermo calculations. I've done some heat flow stuff on circuit boards lately though. I tend to enjoy the math/physics side of things and have a penchant for electronics. Now if you had asked about pumps, pumpjets, and cavitation that falls more in line with my day job.

The underlying physics doesn't matter much anyway. The real answer is that contrary to what common sense might tell you, having no thermostat or insufficient restriction can cause overheating. Just too much anecdotal evidence to say otherwise.

:wave1:

Precisely! Although, I don't think we can consider an automotive engine cooling system a "closed dual loop heat exchange system" - since the atmosphere has an effectively infinite capacity for heat acceptance from small sources like that (and I'd be willing to bet that waste heat from engines would have a lot more to do with "global warming" than emissions - the thought just occurred...):twak:
 
You guys are such nerds lol. 5-90 I'm still getting used to your new avitar. Just making sure, you want the car to run at it's maximum temperature, within it's limits correct? I see all the time people putting in these different thermostats and huge fans and hood vents on a daily driver with a fine system. I would think that much cooling would keep the motor TOO cool, and perhaps hinder performance?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You guys are such nerds lol. 5-90 I'm still getting used to your new avitar. Just making sure, you want the car to run at it's maximum temperature, within it's limits correct? I see all the time people putting in these different thermostats and huge fans and hood vents on a daily driver with a fine system. I would think that much cooling would keep the motor TOO cool, and perhaps hinder performance?

Having the wrong thermostat can cause performance issues by not allowing the motor to warm up properly.

The huge fans and hood vents don't hurt anything, and can be a big help at keeping things cool, especially in low speed/hot day situations, but you do have to insure that the motor is reaching it's optimum temperature first. Once it's there, then getting rid of excess heat is a good thing.
 
Back
Top