Socialized Medicine

:banghead:After my ordeal with Tricare this morning....

Any of you who are for Socialized Medicine, I'm officially convinced that you are smoking crack/doing meth/crank/constantly drunk and/or just completely braindead. Socialized Medicine has to be the worst idea in the history of the world. :explosion Honestly, I think it would be a better idea to give Iran a nuclear weapon ourselves, than to move to Socialize Medicine.


That is all. Thank you.

/rant

You obviously haven't ever lived anywhere that actually provided socialized healthcare. However, to say it couldn't be done efficiently in America is probably the most true statement ever made. Our government has the ability to make the simplest tasks to complicated. I have visited the UK several times, as well other European countries, and while I was visiting family in the UK I broke my arm in a motorcycle accident. I have absolutely zero complaints about their system, and it didn't cost me a dime. Probably ten times more efficient than the $hitty healthcare that I have to PAY for (in the form of medical insurance) here in the States.


Also BTW I am not a liberal or an america hater by any means, just stating my experience.

So in other words, you were drunk when you had your motorcycle accident. And that, in combination with the pain meds that you got afterwards made the nurse look like a centerfold to you. LOL!

j.k.
I'm glad you got excellent treatment.

====

But I think that it's true that if you like socialized medicine that you will view all of it with rose-colored glasses.

And the flip-side is true too.

This is, if you hate socialized medicine, that no amount of good stories about it will seem to sway you.


====

I have have no personal experience with it, but I have the account of only two people I personally know to base my judgment.

MY COUSIN: A nurse. He moved to Canada and after 5 years of working in hospitals is finally moving back to the states. He hates it. He said that there is no incentive for anyone to do a better job. He told me many negative stories. He worked in a rural hospital. He said that the budget/money given to the hospital was a fixed/set amount. For example, the hospital had enough in their annual budget to perform X number of surgeries per year. After their budget was used up, they lost money if they did any more. They would just simply refer the patients to other hospitals after that - unless it was life-threatening.
Therefore, your chances as a patient to get better service are greater at the beginning of the hospital's fiscal year - and terrible at the end of it. He said that the politicians would make sure that hospitals in major cities and close to them would always be overfunded, and outlying hospitals were always underfunded.

A FRIEND: She's an elementary school teacher. She lived in Spain for several years and liked the socialized medicine there. Her only comments were that she got good service and that it was nice not to have to deal with insurance and insurance companies. (Can't blame her for that - I don't like dealing with insurance either. However, I don't mind paying the premium knowing that I'm getting good medical service).

===

x2elite said:

You obviously haven't ever lived anywhere that actually provided socialized healthcare. However, to say it couldn't be done efficiently in America is probably the most true statement ever made. Our government has the ability to make the simplest tasks to complicated. I have visited the UK several times, as well other European countries, and while I was visiting family in the UK I broke my arm in a motorcycle accident. I have absolutely zero complaints about their system, and it didn't cost me a dime. Probably ten times more efficient than the $hitty healthcare that I have to PAY for (in the form of medical insurance) here in the States.


Also BTW I am not a liberal or an america hater by any means, just stating my experience.

Click to expand...

He is talking about Tri-Care, which is the military health insurance. In other words Gov't health care. If you have never used the military health care you don't know how good you have it with private insurance.

If you get sick, you call the office and try and get an appointment, good luck! Call back next Monday is always what my wife hears. Monday? I'm sick now, sorry we don't have any appointments, you can go to the ER, and wait 6+ hours. Oh you want to see a specialist, well you have to see your normal DR first, and see if you can get a referral. Oh we're sorry, there are no open appointments till May.

Oh and my wife is German, born and raised, and she knows all about socialized medicine.

RTicUL8 said:

However, I don't mind paying the premium knowing that I'm getting good medical service).

Click to expand...

But, do you actually get good care/service?

When I was in, Tri-Care was for dependants. All my medical needs were taken care of on base. Looking back, if I had to choose between Tri-Care or a Navy doc, I'd rather just suck it up an be sick/hurt for a while(happened on more than one occasion). The T-C system was a nightmare and I was SCARED of military doctors. The Corpsmen were always really good, but that's where 'good service' ended. Navy tooth hobbyists (I still can't bring myself to call them dentists) were some serious hacks.

fscrig75 said:

He is talking about Tri-Care, which is the military health insurance. In other words Gov't health care. If you have never used the military health care you don't know how good you have it with private insurance.

Click to expand...

Switching to Tri-Care for AD & dependents was a mistake.

And "government" health care? I'd be interested in knowing what career civil servants (now there's a misnomer!) and pols get - I'm willing to bet real money it either isn't TriCare at all, or some hifalutin' plan that uniformed personnel won't ever even hear of.

5-90 said:

And "government" health care? I'd be interested in knowing what career civil servants (now there's a misnomer!) and pols get - I'm willing to bet real money it either isn't TriCare at all, or some hifalutin' plan that uniformed personnel won't ever even hear of.

Click to expand...

Yea I hear you on the civil servants! My wife got referred to an off base DR, but some turd in an office cancelled the referral. Said the base hospital could handle it. Needless to say, I got into a bit of trouble when I went storming into the office the next day yelling at the turd.

How the hell does some POS know any better than my wife's DR?

fscrig75 said:

Yea I hear you on the civil servants! My wife got referred to an off base DR, but some turd in an office cancelled the referral. Said the base hospital could handle it. Needless to say, I got into a bit of trouble when I went storming into the office the next day yelling at the turd.

How the hell does some POS know any better than my wife's DR?

Click to expand...

They don't - they're adminiweenies. I probably have more practical medical experience than they have medical training - all they know is how to shuffle useless paperwork (read: fire-lighters.)

The problem with pretty much any government programme anywhere is that it is either crippled or paralysed by administrative overhead, trivia, and miniutiae.

Next!

kujito said:

But, do you actually get good care/service?

Click to expand...

I get wonderful service.
I have Blue Cross / Blue Shield.
The service is always prompt and I get to choose who I go see.


I've never been in the military, but I've heard from faimily members who are that it's a glimpse of what national socialized medecine would be like. (other people's opinions - not mine.)


.

5-90 said:

I probably have more practical medical experience than they have medical training - all they know is how to shuffle useless paperwork (read: fire-lighters.)

Click to expand...

Yea my wife blows her top when those idiots on the phone try and tell her some BS medical stuff, she is an RN, she calls thier bluff and files complaints.

RTicUL8 said:

I've never been in the military, but I've heard from faimily members who are that it's a glimpse of what national socialized medecine would be like.

Click to expand...

It really is, long waits, no proactive medicine all reactive. Can't see specialists until your primary provider gives you permission and then the office rats still have to approve it.

If your not near a military treatment facility (MTF) then Tri-Care isn't bad, from what I've heard. But if your near a MTF then your under their, military, control and you can only do what they say you can. You can call Tri-Care all you want and even though you pay for Tri-Care you have no rights when it comes to selecting who your provider is. Tri-Care isn't considered an Insurance company so they have different rules.

fscrig75 said:

If you have never used the military health care you don't know how good you have it with private insurance.

Click to expand...

I have had some of my best dental care through Tri-Care. The CG sublets most of our medical out, maybe I'm lucky.

Boatwrench said:

I have had some of my best dental care through Tri-Care. The CG sublets most of our medical out, maybe I'm lucky.

Click to expand...

It's funny, dental is never an issue....but trying to get an appointment for a 4 year old toddler with a 103 degree temperature, sore throat and an ear infection (I knew she had one before we even tried getting an appointment) was a 4 hour ordeal. We finally got referred to an urgent care clinic - by another Air Force Base Medical Clinic. Yep, that's right...had to call Nevada to set up a nurse phone triage consultation, in order to get an appointment/referral in New Mexico.

Tell me how that makes sense.

Oh and BTW, I was 100% correct on the diagnosis of an ear infection - her left eardrum was on the verge of bursting, according to the doc.

Boatwrench said:

I have had some of my best dental care through Tri-Care. The CG sublets most of our medical out, maybe I'm lucky.

Click to expand...

Yes in that aspect it is good. When they send you off base to REAL DRs then you usually will get good care, and in that function Tri-Care is like BC/BS.

But in the normal way the military runs its medical it is horrible.

JNickel101 said:

It's funny, dental is never an issue....but trying to get an appointment for a 4 year old toddler with a 103 degree temperature, sore throat and an ear infection (I knew she had one before we even tried getting an appointment) was a 4 hour ordeal. We finally got referred to an urgent care clinic - by another Air Force Base Medical Clinic. Yep, that's right...had to call Nevada to set up a nurse phone triage consultation, in order to get an appointment/referral in New Mexico.

Tell me how that makes sense.

Oh and BTW, I was 100% correct on the diagnosis of an ear infection - her left eardrum was on the verge of bursting, according to the doc.

Click to expand...

Man I hate that sh*t when they say "Call the dial a nurse" line. Why, so they can tell me I need to go see a DR. Morons

Hope your kid is doing better.

Yep, she's good today, thanks buddy

Antibiotics, when used properly, are a great thing.

Socialized medicine was what the military used before they privatized it.

Yeah, a for-profit health care system is much better.

I guess that's why our health care costs are more than twice as much other comparable countries and our infant mortality rate is so awsome, "(CNN) -- An estimated 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world, according to a new report."
(http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/index.html, yes I know this article is two years old, do you really think anything has changed in two years?)

I can hardly wait till I lose my home and everything else I've worked my entire life for to crippling health care costs because I lost the genetic lottery, or maybe because of an accident that's not even my fault.

I'll not argue that point either - what's the point in having "the best medical care that money can buy" if no-one has the money to pay for it?

The solution? Somewhere in between. Socialising healthcare isn't the answer - that's just taking the HMO and making it much larger. However, the "single-payer" idea has merit in that you will have more negotiating power.

OTOH, you have more fingers!:looney: Seriously, the flipside is that, since medical training costs so damned much, the doctors have to make a living wage while paying off student loans and still being able to cover office expenses and continuing education (which smarts!)

However, insurance companies are largely to blame as well. They keep underpaying what the doctor bills, so the doctor starts overbilling to try to get a more useful amount out of the insurance company. This makes the insurance company stingier, and makes the doctor bill higher, which ... You get the idea.

And, throw in the new wave in "direct to consumer" pharmaceutical advertisements, which has resulted in a wave of hypochondria hitting the American people. The commercial tells them they have X problem, so they need this pill to address it (they often do not, I'm sure.) If their doctor doesn't give them the pill, they'll go find someone who will - so the doctor ends up prescribing it, if he can't find any valid contraindications.

This hypochondria extends to testing as well - with the advent of CT scans, MRIs and other non-invasive testing, people want the tests to make sure they do/don't suffer from whatever they think they do/don't suffer from. This costs the insurance companies money, driving up the costs.

I feel fortunate in having learned a great deal about the field of medicine (no-where near everything, certainly. I'm lacking in biochemistry, but I'm a decent trauma medic, and I've got a solid working knowledge of: general medicine, pulmonology, nephrology, cardiology, neurology, opthalmology, and audiology - as well as infectious organisms) that I feel I can either make informed decisions on my own, or give the doctors enough useful information that they can make a more informed decision (when I go see the MD, they're seeing a snapshot of me. I'm with me all the time.) I can explain why I feel a test is needed - and listen to their opinion on the matter - and the reverse is also true. Informed patients (and not informed by commercials! Hell, I hardly even watch TV...) can save insurance companies money.

There is no simple answer. Socialising medicine won't work - if it did, do you think Canadians would come down here for ops? All these fractious insurance companies are obviously not the answer - look at what it's done already. Some economic regulation of the field is needed, certainly, but what sort? That, dear friends, is the mystery...

DWK said:

Socialized medicine was what the military used before they privatized it.

Click to expand...

I'm not really getting what your saying here. When my wife goes to the DR office she visits the same office that I go to. When she goes to the hospital she visits the same offices that I would go to. She isn't allowed to go to a civilian DR unless she gets approval from the pencil-pushers. Most of the providers are green-suiters, not private contractors.

DWK said:

I guess that's why our health care costs are more than twice as much other comparable countries and our infant mortality rate is so awsome, "(CNN) -- An estimated 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world, according to a new report."
(http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/index.html, yes I know this article is two years old, do you really think anything has changed in two years?)

Click to expand...

What are the comparable countries? Canada? They are coming across the border in mass numbers to see DRs over here since their system is so backed up.
England? I seem to recall a news article about a cancer patient wait 8 months to see a specialist.

Costs are down in those and most EU countries because the Gov't pays some of the cost upfront. Unless you make a certain amount of money, then you get nothing free, you pay for it all yourself. Oh you might want to check out how high there income tax is.

Yes the infant mortality rate is still high, we are higher than 28 other countries. My wife, she is an RN, said a good portion of this reason is that people are stupid. If something feels wrong when you are pregnant you should go see the DR, the county hospital will see them with or without insurance. These numbers also show nothing about how many of these mothers are drug users that have never seen a DR before, not because of the lack of insurance but because they are to worried about where they are going to score there next hit.

NYTIMES said:

There are large differences by race and ethnicity. Non-Hispanic black, American Indian, Alaska Native and Puerto Rican women have the highest rates of infant mortality, while Asian and Pacific Islanders, Central and South Americans, Mexicans and Cubans have the lowest.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a huge portion of the US population to me?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/health/07stat.html?_r=2&ref=health This is newer.

DWK said:

I can hardly wait till I lose my home and everything else I've worked my entire life for to crippling health care costs because I lost the genetic lottery, or maybe because of an accident that's not even my fault.

Click to expand...

Why don't you get some health insurance? Part of what you are working for should be health insurance.
I'm busting my ass in the military for 20+ to make sure my family has health insurance. What did you do?

DWK said:

Socialized medicine was what the military used before they privatized it.

Yeah, a for-profit health care system is much better.

I guess that's why our health care costs are more than twice as much other comparable countries and our infant mortality rate is so awsome, "(CNN) -- An estimated 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world, according to a new report."
(http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/index.html, yes I know this article is two years old, do you really think anything has changed in two years?)

I can hardly wait till I lose my home and everything else I've worked my entire life for to crippling health care costs because I lost the genetic lottery, or maybe because of an accident that's not even my fault.

Click to expand...

How about you quit suggesting we use a band-aid to fix the problem, and attack the real reason that private healthcare costs are so high in this country.

Do a little reading on malpractice insurance. Come back when you have a better idea about our healthcare situation. Med Insurance is high in this country b/c malpractice insurance is high, because some fatass who shouldn't have even been allowed to under the knife is suing their doctor for "pain and suffering" to the tune of $500 million bucks. The fact that doctors are FORCED to treat someone, even if it isn't in their or the patient's best interest to do so, is a secondary problem.

For as long as I can remember, my parents have had Blue Cross/Blue Shield, and we/they have never had any issues or delays with ANYTHING or any type of appointment needed. No 4 hour delays while another doc office in another state gets around to calling you for approval for a referral....etc etc etc....

:doh:

DWK said:

the genetic lottery

Click to expand...

That's called survival of the fittest. Natural Selection. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work, or work fast enough in this country or in this world.

Did you also ever stop and think that the infant mortality rate here is so high because we live in a country full of:

1. People who probably shouldn't be breeding in the first place
2. Hypochondriacs

:gag: