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front D44 with cast mounts. why are they no good?

2000Cherokee

NAXJA Forum User
Location
mass
i have been searching around for HP D44 to swap under my jeep and i found one locally but i belive it has cast mounts. now i have heard that i can put it under my jeep but i have also heard that i cant? just wondering if it will work or not. i still want to keep coils up front. im just not sure if i want to use the radius arms or go for soemthing else.

my main question is can this axle still be made to fit under my jeep? and if it is in fact cast what special things will i have to do to get it to work right.

i have searched and havent found an answer
 
I have one with cast mounts under my heep. Made my own brackets and welded them directly to the cast mounts (special precautions must be taken when welding to the cast steel). You can also lengthen the ferd arms and use them.
 
This axle is not desirable for somone that wants the xj link suspension. Welding to cast is generaly not recomended. That being said it can be used easily with a radius arms type suspension. Cage and James Duff both make and arm that can be used with that axle. They are arrond $700 though. FarmerMatt used the factory arms and modded them. Search in the Advanced fab forum for "CAT" and "FarmerMatt" That should bring up his build up thread.
 
do you have any pics of the mounts you made? also do have any front shots of the jeep. just wondering how wide i will be after i go full width.

the axle is out of a 78-79 bronco and i think the person said that it is 65wms-wms does that sound correct?
 
also.. for the rear i can have acces to 2 ford 9" rears one is already mine and came out of a late 70 early 80s bronco. i can but a matching 9" with this axle or i maybe able to get a D60..

im not sure what to get for the rear. i like the idea of using a 9" just because the bolt pattern is the same.

im looking at running either 36" TSLs or 37" trxus m/ts. while still keeping my jeep street legal. not sure if that is possible tho right now. im not sure that a D44 and a 9" are up to running 36-37" tires

i dont do any real extreme rock crawling. typical NE terrain. mud and some rocks mixed on the side. but nothing like the rock crawling that is done out west
 
I am running an HP44 from a 78 Bronco. I like it. I kept it full width and modified the radius arms to work on my rig. It had disk brakes (a plus). I did a one ton TRE steering setup and reamed the knuckles from the top.

If you don't mind full width, It is a great axle. I'll post some pix after a while.
 
i want to keep it full width just to have the added width, since i will have to bump up my lift size. but i dont want it real wide. i was searching around and i found a picture that Wil Badger posted up with his rig being full width and running 36s and with 5" of backspacing a bushwaker flares it looks like i will be able to keep my rig street legal
 
This is my rig with the same width axle you're talking about...

clayton06_046.sized.jpg


3.5" BS 15x8's with 33x12.50 tires...

after putting TJ flares on, it looks close enough that I havent been bothered by the man about that aspect of the rig...

another shot -
DSCF0472.jpg
 
3-4front.jpg


hp44.jpg


hp44ra.jpg


I am using the Bronco track bar. I need to shorten it about .75" more, but it makes for an inexpensive setup.
 
Ghost said:
This axle is not desirable for somone that wants the xj link suspension. Welding to cast is generaly not recomended. That being said it can be used easily with a radius arms type suspension. Cage and James Duff both make and arm that can be used with that axle. They are arrond $700 though. FarmerMatt used the factory arms and modded them. Search in the Advanced fab forum for "CAT" and "FarmerMatt" That should bring up his build up thread.

How are your inner knuckles held onto your axle tubes.....They are welded. You can weld to cast steel with the proper set up, cast iron is what you should avoid welding to. I built my mounts in the exact same location as a stock dana 30 so it is very usable with the "xj link" suspension. I will try to post up pics tomorrow.
 
BRIANHO13 said:
How are your inner knuckles held onto your axle tubes.....They are welded. You can weld to cast steel with the proper set up, cast iron is what you should avoid welding to. I built my mounts in the exact same location as a stock dana 30 so it is very usable with the "xj link" suspension. I will try to post up pics tomorrow.

x2. It's all about the cast STEEL vs cast IRON. There seems to be a huge misconception among many offroaders about welding to cast steel.
 
It is not that cast is impossible or desirable its simply not all that strong. It can be done but you sacrifice alot of strength. Most welding shops do not want to weld to anything cast for the simple reason that even with the proper percautions, it weakens the surrounding material and if that mount should break off, it would take a considerable amount of the case with it.

Yes the knuckles are welded on but there is a difference in that there is alot more surface area to weld to and to distribute the stress vs. an upper control arm mount that is 1x3" welded to the pot. This is why you see many people running the bridge over the pumpkin.

Essentially, can you weld to cast? Yes, will the weld be as strong? No.
 
Cast items have an amorphous grain structure (think fibreboard...) due to the pouring and random cooling.

Wrought items (mill stock - like plates, bar stock, and rod stock,) have a definite grain structure (not dissimilar to actual wood,) which contributes to the overall strength of the thing.

The lack of the grain structure in cast metals is also what contributes to the difficulty in welding - and why cast metals need to be preheated to be welded, and can fault or crack severely when "spot-heated" - like with a fusion welding process. The grain structure in wrought stock does a better job of transferring heat throughout the item being welded, which is why wrought stock welds better than cast, with less work...

5-90
 
old_man said:
3-4front.jpg


hp44.jpg


hp44ra.jpg


I am using the Bronco track bar. I need to shorten it about .75" more, but it makes for an inexpensive setup.

Tom,

I am looking to do this swap starting soon. I have the axles and 90% of the parts. Looks like you are using the stock spring perches on the radius arms. Is this so? Have you had any funny handling characteristics? Thanks for the help.

Matt
 
twisted_ed said:
It is not that cast is impossible or desirable its simply not all that strong. It can be done but you sacrifice alot of strength. Most welding shops do not want to weld to anything cast for the simple reason that even with the proper percautions, it weakens the surrounding material and if that mount should break off, it would take a considerable amount of the case with it.

Yes the knuckles are welded on but there is a difference in that there is alot more surface area to weld to and to distribute the stress vs. an upper control arm mount that is 1x3" welded to the pot. This is why you see many people running the bridge over the pumpkin.

Essentially, can you weld to cast? Yes, will the weld be as strong? No.
This is a much more detailed reason as to why not to do it. Also, have you ever tried to fix cast parts on the trail? I have seen the attemp. The vehical ended up being left on the trail.
 
No funny handling. I ground the radius arm/spring perch mount to angle the springs in a bit. At the moment, the axle is off center until I shorten the track bar, but it handles great. It was an easy swap.

I'm an engineer by profession. In engineering you learn that any good design is a series of tradeoffs. If you try and make everything perfect, it ends up taking too long and costing too much. I looked at what my goals were. I wanted an stronger axle that still had decent clearance. I was willing to accept a slightly wider axle. I have the equipment to narrow an axle, but with all the off camber trails around here, wider is nice. That is why a lot of us like to limit our lift to around 6".

The cost of high steer gets a bit steep for my tight budget. I reamed the stock knuckles from the top and used 1 ton TREs and a beefy tie rod and drag link. Yes high steer gives you more clearance, but if I find I need it, i can always add it later.

I used stock Ford radius arms that I welded RE super joints to. A lot of people say they are too short. They are the same length at the arms I built for my previous rig and ran for years. They ride a heck of a lot better than the stock 4 link and have performed well on the trail. Many people say you have to tuck the arms up higher. I mounted mine the same way I did on my previous rig, namely to the bottom of the frame rail. Yes they hang down a couple of inches, but no where near as far as a drop bracket. When I scrapped my previous rig, I only had a couple of scratches on the mounts and They never hung up and kept me from making an obstacle. To get the pinion angle within range and the caster angle correct, I used the 7 degree bushings.

I am using the stock Bronco track bar with modifications. It is not adjustable without a grinder and a welder, but once you set it to the right length, why would you need it adjustable any more?

Here is a breakdown of what I have invested in my front axle:

$200 complete axle with brakes and radius arms.
$50 high ratio carrier with QuickLock (used)
$225 gears and master kit
$65 RE super joints
$20 1" grade 8 bolts and coupler nuts to make radius arms adjustable
$20 new track bar bushings
$30 new radius arm bushings
$100 for 1 ton TRE's
$80 for 5/16ths DOM for tie rod & 1/4 DOM for drag link
$40 threaded inserts
$60 new hubs
$10 new brake pads
$30 new axle seals

So the whole intall including sleeving the frame rails ran me less than a grand. OH, I forgot, I picked up a spare set of stock axles for $75.

I did cryo treat the axles and ujoints myself. $30 in materials.

My goal is to get a rig that gets me where I want to go that costs what I can afford. If those two goals aren't met, there is no wheeling.

I build my rig to please me, not some idiot that knows nothing and thinks that you have to have the best of everything to be able to do anything. Yes it would be nice to have everything new and perfect, but I have other priorities.
 
Last edited:
old_man said:
No funny handling.

I'm an engineer by profession. In engineering you learn that any good design is a series of tradeoffs.

I build my rig to please me, not some idiot that knows nothing and thinks that you have to have the best of everything to be able to do anything. Yes it would be nice to have everything new and perfect, but I have other priorities.

All of this x2 from me, and my junk has performed exactly like designed.
40fbz8g.jpg


it now has 37" boggers and ram assist since this pic.
 
Ghost said:
This is a much more detailed reason as to why not to do it. Also, have you ever tried to fix cast parts on the trail? I have seen the attemp. The vehical ended up being left on the trail.

Yep, seen a truck left out in the bush for the same reasons
 
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