WB9YZU
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- Madison, WI
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Should the Government own a stake in the "BIG Three"?
- Thread starter WB9YZU
- Start date
j99xj
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Colorado Springs, CO, USA
The only stake the government should have in any industry is to stay the hell out. The big 3 are tanking because they have been under tremendous pressure to comply with the c.a.f.e. standards.
alex22
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- CT: waterbury area
Loosing $500 per Escort let them pass the CAFE standards, but has obviously had its effect on the big picture. The other two have probably had to do similar things as well.
~Alex
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
From what I have read, if one of them, especially GM, goes under it will cost the treasury hundreds of billions in lost government tax income and payouts of unemployment benefits, and lead to putting 2.5 million Americans out of work. In other words we lose big time either way at the Treasury, except if a bail out loan works and the Treasury gets repayed.
It worked once before for Chrysler when the nay naysayers back then screamed at Reagan/Bush for doing it in the mid 80s.
I think the risks of not doing it far outway the risks of doing it. Japan subsidizes Toyota, why shouldn't we subsidize GM.
It worked once before for Chrysler when the nay naysayers back then screamed at Reagan/Bush for doing it in the mid 80s.
I think the risks of not doing it far outway the risks of doing it. Japan subsidizes Toyota, why shouldn't we subsidize GM.
Jeff in VA
<---respect
- Location
- Richmond, VA
No.
Jeff
Jeff
- Location
- on the beach in Ocean View, VA
ditto^
- Location
- Southern Maryland
Well there is the ideological and then there is the reality. Ideally the companies wouldn't be in this situation, would have broken the union strangle that makes US car companies non competitive, would not be under crazy California emission requirements, etc. OTOH we have Democrats controlling congress and their fix for everything is more spending and ignoring the root causes (mostly because they are responsible for them).
So... if my representatives are going to give my money to them, then I want the representatives to secure me a stake, same as any other investor
So... if my representatives are going to give my money to them, then I want the representatives to secure me a stake, same as any other investor
tharlanjr
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- EAST COUNTY
The only way they should get money is if they change the faulty union contracts...
Why would you give them money when they are going to waste it the same way?
They need to downsize dramaticly and cut production to meet the declining needs.
And if their unemployment is as rediculous as California's then its time the government took off some of their regulations in order for the company to survive.
I guarantee if they didnt have to pay as much as they do, they could make it on their own without the gov bail out.
Why would you give them money when they are going to waste it the same way?
They need to downsize dramaticly and cut production to meet the declining needs.
And if their unemployment is as rediculous as California's then its time the government took off some of their regulations in order for the company to survive.
I guarantee if they didnt have to pay as much as they do, they could make it on their own without the gov bail out.
Ronbo
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- San Marcos, CA
California emissions put more weight on the aftermarket, not OEM. You could always look to the successful auto companies for proof. The Big 3 have been digging their graves for years.
bigalpha
Moderator
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
+1. I keep reading how GM has one plant running on overtime to make more SUVs.
RichP
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Effort, Pa
Step one: Throw out the CEO, Board of Directors and upper management.
Step two: Cap the pay, stock options and perks of the replacements that you got rid of in step one.
Step three: Throw out the union leaders who have turned the UAW into a business. How many 'union leaders' have actually worked on the production lines, very few now a days.s
Step four: Remove the protections that they have had for the past 20 years that allowed them to produce those monsters they make.
Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai all have plants in the US, they are also union, you don't hear them screaming. They also provide benefits that are pretty dam good including housing, day care ON ALL THE SHIFTS.
Step two: Cap the pay, stock options and perks of the replacements that you got rid of in step one.
Step three: Throw out the union leaders who have turned the UAW into a business. How many 'union leaders' have actually worked on the production lines, very few now a days.s
Step four: Remove the protections that they have had for the past 20 years that allowed them to produce those monsters they make.
Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai all have plants in the US, they are also union, you don't hear them screaming. They also provide benefits that are pretty dam good including housing, day care ON ALL THE SHIFTS.
Ronbo
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- San Marcos, CA
I can't find any info newer than Dec 07, but since day one, Toyota factories in the US are NON-union facilities. Same with the Nissan plant in Mississippi.
edit: Just out of curiosity, I also can't find info on every assembly plant.
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- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Right now killing the auto unions and wages will just lead to less consumer buying power, more deflation and lost jobs. What we need is more cars sold which requires fixing the banking & credit industry and retooling Detroit to build something consumers will buy. 2 years ago consumers all wanted huge behemoth SUVs.
Japan forces the Japanese to retire cars at 50,000 miles, to buy new cars, just to get permits to drive the cars in Japan. The old cars are sold overseas, in third world countries from what I have heard. Gives Japan a stable home automotive market. They also have far tighter vehicle regulations in Japan than we do here, and yet they, Toyota are kicking our ass. But keep in mind that Toyota sales are down nearly 50% this last quarter due to the worldwide recession. It's the world wide drop in auto sales world wide that is killing all the auto companies world wide, it is not just the big 3 Detroit problem anymore. Even Prius sales are way down now.
Jeff in VA
<---respect
- Location
- Richmond, VA
How the hell many cars does this nation need? I can't even count how many dealerships, new and used, there are around me, lots FULL of inventory. Need a new ride, go buy one that's already sitting somewhere. Don't keep making them and tell me it's my fault the big 3 are sinking because noone's buying.
C'mon guys, failed business methods do not deserve to be "saved", regardless of consumer protectionism.
C'mon guys, failed business methods do not deserve to be "saved", regardless of consumer protectionism.
goodburbon
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Westcliffe Colorado.
I'm sorry what? How about a HELL NO, look what's happened with the banking bailout! The AIG bailout! WHAT IN THE HELL ARE WE DOING? We are systematically using taxpayers to bear the burden of our largest industries that have been making their fortunes (and losing them) by exploiting their customers....who happen to be TAXPAYERS!!!!
If a business fails it is not the governments responsibility to prop them up, it is the business that has the responsibility of recognizing changing markets and then adapt to survive. If we continue to prop up poor business practices as a nation then we as a nation will fail due to bad business practices. I at the very least want my stock interest in those companies that my dollars are going to!
If a business fails it is not the governments responsibility to prop them up, it is the business that has the responsibility of recognizing changing markets and then adapt to survive. If we continue to prop up poor business practices as a nation then we as a nation will fail due to bad business practices. I at the very least want my stock interest in those companies that my dollars are going to!
msrorysddad
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Texas
I have a serious question. I'm not very smart, and do not work well with numbers. So, to all of you out there. How many people live in America? How much bailout money has been promised? Now divide the bailout money by the number of people in America. How much would each individual get if the money were spread among the people as opposed to the Banking and auto world? The same goes for, how much will each of us be in debt for, because, once again the government prints the money, we the people make it. Please help me with the math, I'm dumb, but good lookin, so.
- Location
- Southern Maryland
wrongRichP said:
although they will be union if card-check is passed
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8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
The financial system is a house of cards. It gets convoluted and involved, but how can anybody expect growth and profits to go up forever? Even if you produce a product that costs more and lasts a shorter period of time, sooner or late there will be market saturation.
Established big industry eventually fails and lays off employees, who are also likely to buy less and the downward spiral begins.
The bailout money is seed money to try and keep the system going long enough to recover. Whether the finacial system has finally hit a wall and won't recover, I guess nobody knows for sure.
Costs and taxes have been going up for decades while wages have been falling farther and farther behind. Which is one way to post profits, but eventually castrates your consumer base.
The adults in a normal household all have to work now on days, families with children are almost universally forced to farm the raising of there children out to the state or other individuals. In effect two or more wage earners are getting paid relatively the same as one did 40 years ago and most all of the kids are being raised by strangers and/or neglected.
Joe wage earner is forced to consume less, whether he wants to or not, the downward spiral begins anew.
Any one of these factors could shake the house of cards. Outside influences like doubling the price of fuel, waging a war or natural catastrophe can make things more unstable.
You have government, the utility companies, producers of consumables, landlords and everybody else under the sun trying to figure out a way to get a larger percentage of your pay check at the same time and maximize there profits. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the money pit isn't bottomless and the people trying to maximize there profits with your paycheck are eventually going to use you up.
IMO the finacial system is FUBAR
One reason I bought GE stock way back when, they made affordable, simple, durable, long lasting washing machines.
Those days are dead, the bean counters and the engineers have gotten there heads together and have just about milked the consumer dry. Marketing, engineered obsolescence, collusive pricing, greed and plain old theft have gutted the consumer. You start looking into who actually owns supposedly competing brands and find out most are owned by the same company (many are foreign based).
Established big industry eventually fails and lays off employees, who are also likely to buy less and the downward spiral begins.
The bailout money is seed money to try and keep the system going long enough to recover. Whether the finacial system has finally hit a wall and won't recover, I guess nobody knows for sure.
Costs and taxes have been going up for decades while wages have been falling farther and farther behind. Which is one way to post profits, but eventually castrates your consumer base.
The adults in a normal household all have to work now on days, families with children are almost universally forced to farm the raising of there children out to the state or other individuals. In effect two or more wage earners are getting paid relatively the same as one did 40 years ago and most all of the kids are being raised by strangers and/or neglected.
Joe wage earner is forced to consume less, whether he wants to or not, the downward spiral begins anew.
Any one of these factors could shake the house of cards. Outside influences like doubling the price of fuel, waging a war or natural catastrophe can make things more unstable.
You have government, the utility companies, producers of consumables, landlords and everybody else under the sun trying to figure out a way to get a larger percentage of your pay check at the same time and maximize there profits. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the money pit isn't bottomless and the people trying to maximize there profits with your paycheck are eventually going to use you up.
IMO the finacial system is FUBAR
One reason I bought GE stock way back when, they made affordable, simple, durable, long lasting washing machines.
Those days are dead, the bean counters and the engineers have gotten there heads together and have just about milked the consumer dry. Marketing, engineered obsolescence, collusive pricing, greed and plain old theft have gutted the consumer. You start looking into who actually owns supposedly competing brands and find out most are owned by the same company (many are foreign based).
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- Location
- Southern Maryland
wealth is not a fixed sum. wealth is created when value is created. the more people that create value, the more wealth there is. there is no upper limit on wealth.
that is because the standard of living has gone up as well. people could be one-worker household when they did not have multiple cars, big houses, etc.
