Wonder if they are getting nervous

How do you mean "they"?

For the record, I'm a 110% staunch supporter of the military and it's personnel, being the son of a WWII veteran and various friends and aquaintances who have been to Iraq,etc. but I disagree with this.

However, I think the membership rolls of and their weapons cache could repel any threat, lol!!

Who knows. But if Al Quida was planning something here, the next 10 weeks would be a bad time for us for them to do it, considering the stock market, financial crisis, election...and so on. Maybe they are just being extra cautious, something I would be inclined to do right now, or maybe it's been in the works for years, and just finally took place.

Kinda out of my area of knowledge.

Ecomike said:

Who knows. But if Al Quida was planning something here, the next 10 weeks would be a bad time for us for them to do it,

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That's what makes it the perfect time.

It is beginning. I'm sure that this is not an isolated incident. Probably happening at bases all over the country.

The Germans are trying to pass laws to use there Armed Forces as domestic police. They say as a counter terrorism measure, but coincidently at the same time a major bank has failed and the government is proposing a 50 billion bailout.
Trans Europe and international banks are also in trouble, they are having week long meetings by the EU finance ministers here.

"We don't have the luxury to wish these things away. We have to imagine the unimaginable," Johnson said.




Mission Accomplished.

Send them into inner cities to get rid of gangs...start with Obamama's Chicago "homeland". Probably plenty of Crips/Bloods to be shot.

8Mud said:

The Germans are trying to pass laws to use there Armed Forces as domestic police. They say as a counter terrorism measure, but coincidently at the same time a major bank has failed and the government is proposing a 50 billion bailout,...

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The German domestic police regularly carry Uzis. From what I saw there, the German army would probably show more restraint then the police.

tbburg said:

The German domestic police regularly carry Uzis. From what I saw there, the German army would probably show more restraint then the police.

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They mostly carry MP-5's, but rarely use them. Police shootings are rare here. They do things differently, they try to be non confrontational and still get the job done.
A cop shooting anybody here will likely result in the end of his or her carrier.

I had about 2 months in country and watched a drunk GI get a lesson in civil rights. Mid 80s, small border town. Might have been a different mentality.

8Mud said:

The Germans are trying to pass laws to use there Armed Forces as domestic police. They say as a counter terrorism measure, but coincidently at the same time a major bank has failed and the government is proposing a 50 billion bailout.
Trans Europe and international banks are also in trouble, they are having week long meetings by the EU finance ministers here.

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Germany doesn't have an analogue to the Posse Comitatus Act that we have, do they? And, I thought GSG-9 was already tasked with counterterror - foreign and domestic.

Or are you talking about just getting the "rank and file" military involved as well?

Of course, there could be a situation over there similar to over here - we're literally a heartbeat away from martial law as it is. A Federal State of Emergency was declared in 1929 (coincident with the market crash, the Bank Holiday, et al...) and was never rescinded. In a State of Emergency, it's possible to suspend most of Federal law, the entirely of State and Local law, and most of the Constitution - should the President fell it necessary to the safety and security of the Nation as a whole (I believe it falls under the War Powers Act.) In this case, even Congress won't be able to put a stop to anything - because Congress doesn't have to be notified anymore (not that they do anything now.)

The mission of this unit just skirts the limitations under Posse Comitatus - but only just. Thin end of a wedge, anyone?

I prefer "The camel's nose".

5-90 said:

Germany doesn't have an analogue to the Posse Comitatus Act that we have, do they? And, I thought GSG-9 was already tasked with counterterror - foreign and domestic.

Or are you talking about just getting the "rank and file" military involved as well?

Of course, there could be a situation over there similar to over here - we're literally a heartbeat away from martial law as it is. A Federal State of Emergency was declared in 1929 (coincident with the market crash, the Bank Holiday, et al...) and was never rescinded. In a State of Emergency, it's possible to suspend most of Federal law, the entirely of State and Local law, and most of the Constitution - should the President fell it necessary to the safety and security of the Nation as a whole (I believe it falls under the War Powers Act.) In this case, even Congress won't be able to put a stop to anything - because Congress doesn't have to be notified anymore (not that they do anything now.)

The mission of this unit just skirts the limitations under Posse Comitatus - but only just. Thin end of a wedge, anyone?

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Pretty much the same as the States, the powers of the military are limited domestically, just a somewhat different structure. GSG-9 is actually part of the Border Police (Border Patrol), and have about the same jurisdiction as the Coast Guard, somewhere between and/or including a military mission and Police powers at the same time.

The way I understand it, is they want to train the military in Police tactics, supposedly as an anti terrorism response. They didn't actually specify if it was the military in general or the formation of special units (good question). The flavor of the article I read, was using the military as regular Police. The German press has the tendency (often) to exaggerate and/or ignite controversy when there isn't any on occasion.
It just seemed odd that Germans are being reported as doing some of the same things that are being reported in the states, at the same time. One of my Dad's favorite sayings was "there is no such thing as coincidence".
It's actually a bigger deal here in Germany than it would be in the U.S., Germany has invaded it's neighbors in the past and now have laws controlling the military on many levels. Like how many soldiers (Regular Army) and which types can even be near a border, among other limitations. There was a time when a German soldier wasn't allowed within three miles of a border, any border, while on duty. The military being given Police powers would actually affect many international treaties and limitations that are still on the books. It wasn't long ago that they relaxed the laws banning deploying the German Military outside of it's borders for any reason.
The Border Police do the missions the German army isn't allowed to do by treaty and under existing laws, the size of the Border Police is also limited by treaty. Though the mission of the Border Police has expanded some with the formation of GSG-9 and it's newer no name evolutions.

8Mud said:

It just seemed odd that Germans are being reported as doing some of the same things that are being reported in the states, at the same time. One of my Dad's favorite sayings was "there is no such thing as coincidence".

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One time=no coincidence
Two to Three times=coincidence
More than three times=conspiracy

8Mud said:

They mostly carry MP-5's, but rarely use them. Police shootings are rare here. They do things differently, they try to be non confrontational and still get the job done.
A cop shooting anybody here will likely result in the end of his or her carrier.

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Here in Houston it is unusual for the Police not shoot some one on a daily basis just for target practice.

Ecomike said:

Here in Houston it is unusual for the Police not shoot some one on a daily basis just for target practice.

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I was over in Rota Spain in 76 for turnover from the gold to my blue crew, saw a guardia shoot a purse snatcher with a 9mm beretta sub gun, stitched him with 3 rounds, walked over got the purse back, handed it to the woman and made a radio call then walked away, left the body there. He did not even check his pulse, just grabbed the purse and walked away.:dunno:

RichP said:

I was over in Rota Spain in 76 for turnover from the gold to my blue crew, saw a guardia shoot a purse snatcher with a 9mm beretta sub gun, stitched him with 3 rounds, walked over got the purse back, handed it to the woman and made a radio call then walked away, left the body there. He did not even check his pulse, just grabbed the purse and walked away.:dunno:

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Six police shot an unarmed guy here recently after a 1 hour chase on the freeways. He had called 911 and told the p[olice dispatcher he was undercover CIA and asked the dispatcher to notify the police chasing him that he was pulling over to surrender. They got him out of the car, and suddenly several of them filled with a bout 6 or more bullets. Then they hand cuffed him, and waited 30 minutes to call an ambulance! He was DOE because they waitied to long to call an ambulance. This was all live on Local TV too!

RichP said:

One time=no coincidence
Two to Three times=coincidence
More than three times=conspiracy

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Hm. I'd heard it as, "Once is an 'accident', twice is a 'coincidence', three times is a 'conspiracy'."

Even if they form a "special unit" within the standing armed forces (over here, anyhow,) Posse Comitatus would still apply.

The only case where it would not apply would be when National Guard units are mobilised by Governors at the State level - they are effectively removed (at that point) from national chain of command until/unless they are activated and reassed Federally. When NG units are under State control, they are "quasi-military" units answering to the Governor. As I understand it, they are still paid Federally, but the State is then billed for the use of the NG units to recover the Federal expense.

(This is largely why National Guard units differ from Reserve units. A Reserve unit is still Federal, while NG units may be activated at Federal or State level.)

At least, this is how I've been given to understand it. I'm willing to be proven wrong - just point me to where I should look!

tbburg said:

I had about 2 months in country and watched a drunk GI get a lesson in civil rights. Mid 80s, small border town. Might have been a different mentality.

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I was young and dumb once, and can confirm that they will hand out a beat down pretty quickly. If I would've just kept my mouth shut and did what they told me to, I probably would've been ok. Oh well live and learn, ha ha.

RichP said:

I was over in Rota Spain in 76 for turnover from the gold to my blue crew, saw a guardia shoot a purse snatcher with a 9mm beretta sub gun, stitched him with 3 rounds, walked over got the purse back, handed it to the woman and made a radio call then walked away, left the body there. He did not even check his pulse, just grabbed the purse and walked away.:dunno:

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In my youth when I used to backpack through Spain, the old grapevine told me quick, don't mess with the Guardia (no matter how funny there hats look don't laugh, they are bad arses). On the flip side, you can do some pretty crazy stuff and they won't even look your way. The line between a rather broad tolerance and shooting you dead, seems to be rather abrupt. Don't mess with the local women (ladies), don't steal or mess with property, the rules are pretty easy.
I came staggering out of a Bar fight once to face a squad of Guardia standing outside, I automatically assumed the position, they waved me on by. I was told later that Bar fights were OK, as long as you don't bust the place up.
The world is full of different cultures.
One thing about German Cops, they rarely use force if it can be avoided, though they have little tolerance for gangs and they will wade right in. You never hear of anybody getting beat for running, they just don't chase down a rabbit and beat it. But if you confront them, you may get one of those spring loaded riot sticks up side the head.