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A Question About the War in Iraq

kujito

NAXJA Forum User
Location
colorado
Not sure if this should be in the Sooper Dooper or not, but...

I've been giving this quite a bit of thought lately.

Who are we at war with? Seriously. Who is the enemy?
The Sunni? The Shia? The Kurds? All of the above? I don't recall us declaring war against any of these groups.

I keep hearing about how we need to win this war, but how do you win a war without an enemy?

I don't give a rats ass why we went there; we're there. I'm not a cut and run advocate, but we can't stay there forever. It's simply not sustainable. The stated reason we're still there is that we haven't achieved victory yet, but we have no enemy to be victorious over.
 
At the moment we are assisting the government of Iraq fight challengers to their authority.

Major wars typically consist of three stages: First you have the war against the governing power (which took all of three weeks). International rules of war state that if the invader wins they become the authority on the ground and is responsible for the operation and security of the state, so during the period between governments we were fighting whoever was challenging our authority (Al Qaeda, the Ba'athist holdouts, the Iranian-backed theocrats, whoever); this was the Paul Bremer period essentially. For the past couple of years, Iraq has had a democratically elected parliamentary government that is recognized by the UN and everybody else, so they are now responsible for the operation and security of the state, and we are assisting them.
 
Thats the problem with fighting a guerrilla style force, everyone could be your enemy
 
The enemy is instability. When Saddam was removed from power, everyone went nuts. We had a particular "group" that we thought was best to be in power, but the Iraqis did hold an election - their government is a mis-mash of Sunni/Shiite/Kurd/Shia?

We will only stay there until the government is stabilized and they can defend/secure/police themselves against those who wish for anarchy, instability and/or "wild west" type law - i.e., me and my buddies have lots of guns, you'll listen to us and what we say or we'll shoot you and your family.
 
ehall: That's the best answer I've recieved (asked other places/people too).

Just got emailed THIS and it reminded me of this thread. Bravo Zulu to those boys for that find!
 
JohnJohn said:
Isn't that why we beat the British during the American Revolution?

Probly true. and also probly the reason why we're the only ones that can possibly fight that kind of war.
 
ECKSJAY said:
We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia.


Hmmm.... another employee of the Ministry of Peace I see....

I hope your ration of state sponsored VODKA is more than mine. :D
 
Well, we are at war with terrorism, but the war that the politicians are refering to is liberating Iraq. We are helping them to be a democracy and lead themselves opposed to having a dictatorship like under Sadam.

Now as far as when we need to leave Iraq, the recent troop "Surge" that a lot of Dems said wouldnt work was proven to work, even "The Chosen One" aka Obama has admited that it worked.

Currently we are in the works of a withdrawl, but you have to be realistic in the fact that they are still a new and weak government so to do a complete withdrawl asap would leave them vounerable to be taken over again.

If we were to just cut and run and they get swamped again, then all the troops whom willingly gave their lives for a just cause (imho) would have died in vain...

The thing that people dont realise is that we have been at war for YEARS longer than anyone chooses to beleive. The first woorld trade center bombing, and countless other bombing done throughout the years. They have been at war with us, we just never wanted to fight back.


Those are facts, filled with my personal opinion, take it as it is...
 
We are at war with a group (not country) that wants all Christianity dead. Your an anthiest, they want you dead too. Unless you read the Koran and subscribe/follow strict Islamamic fundamentalism the terrorists want you dead.

We are fighting a war on terrorism/fundamental Islamics. Iraq is only the start. The liberals just do not want to believe this. Want proof? See the Dems support of the troop surge that worked. The Dems were against it. Terrorist DO NOT negotiate except with what they understand...a bullet coming out of a barrel. Want the problem to go away? Let the military do its job.
 
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At the moment we are assisting the government of Iraq fight challengers to their authority.

Major wars typically consist of three stages: First you have the war against the governing power (which took all of three weeks). International rules of war state that if the invader wins they become the authority on the ground and is responsible for the operation and security of the state, so during the period between governments we were fighting whoever was challenging our authority (Al Qaeda, the Ba'athist holdouts, the Iranian-backed theocrats, whoever); this was the Paul Bremer period essentially. For the past couple of years, Iraq has had a democratically elected parliamentary government that is recognized by the UN and everybody else, so they are now responsible for the operation and security of the state, and we are assisting them.

The enemy is instability. When Saddam was removed from power, everyone went nuts. We had a particular "group" that we thought was best to be in power, but the Iraqis did hold an election - their government is a mis-mash of Sunni/Shiite/Kurd/Shia?

We will only stay there until the government is stabilized and they can defend/secure/police themselves against those who wish for anarchy, instability and/or "wild west" type law - i.e., me and my buddies have lots of guns, you'll listen to us and what we say or we'll shoot you and your family.

I actually agree with you guys here! :shocked: The mission in Iraq is to stabilize it to the point where the government can take over full operations. As far as the enemy is concerned, it is anyone who is attempting to destabilize the Iraqi government like Nickel said.

The question then becomes how stable do they have to be before we withdraw? Stable like the US or stable like any other third world shit hole but doesn't pose a threat to the rest of the surrounding area. The other grey area is the question of who is trying to destabilize the government and who is just an opposing party critical of the current regime? Violence is an indicator for this factor, but not proof positive.

Take for example the Mahdi Army. Is it a political organization or a destabilizing movement attempting to stop democracy in Iraq? It's both, and that's where things get really complicated as far as US strategy is concerned. They have elected members of Parliament (quite a few actually) and hold extreme influence over the dominant religious majority in Iraq. That being said, they have a militant wing that conducts criminal operations and close ties to one of our enemies: Iran. So do we actively engage them to reduce their operational capabilities and influence? If you say yes, then the Iraqi's will view that as an attempt by the US to silence a political organization that doesn't agree with us and an affront on the sovereignty of the Iraqi political process, which reduces Joe Iraqi's faith in Democracy. If you say no, then they continue to kill American's, and that is unsat as well.

It's complicated and these types of situations play out differently from neighborhood to neighborhood all across Iraq.

IMHO, the longer we stay the more we are actually hindering the Iraqi government's progress. They are at a point now to where they will be about as stable as any other third world shit hole. It is an unreasonable goal to think that they will ever reach the stability of the US or Europe. As it stood when my unit left, the more we challenged the Iraqi government the more they rose to the challenge. Small example of this: The Iraqi Police would use our fuel to fill their trucks instead of pursuing a steady fuel supply through their higher HQ supply chain. Finally, we said no, piss off, get your own gas. After much bitching and moaning, two weeks later they had a steady supply of fuel. There are many more examples of this I could talk about, but whatever. I'm sure people will disagree, it's impossible for Nickel and Hall to agree with me on Iraq, but this is where I see it.
 
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I notice the same sound when I wear sandals....

flip-flop-flip-flop-flip-flop....

lol....
 
I notice the same sound when I wear sandals....

flip-flop-flip-flop-flip-flop....

lol....

It's not so much that he's flip-flopping on issues, but it points to his complete ignorance of how things work in government. Remember when he said he'd assemble the Joint Chiefs of Staff to work out a timetable to withdraw troops from Iraq? He has no clue. He claimed our troops were in Iraq illegally. He was wrong. Where does he dream up this stuff? And he wants Congress to be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops? Lord, help us!

If you've ever worked for a "hands-on" boss who was incompetent and totally clueless with the organization's processes, then you'll know what it'll be like if Obama is elected.
 
It's not so much that he's flip-flopping on issues, but it points to his complete ignorance of how things work in government. Remember when he said he'd assemble the Joint Chiefs of Staff to work out a timetable to withdraw troops from Iraq? He has no clue. He claimed our troops were in Iraq illegally. He was wrong. Where does he dream up this stuff? And he wants Congress to be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops? Lord, help us!

If you've ever worked for a "hands-on" boss who was incompetent and totally clueless with the organization's processes, then you'll know what it'll be like if Obama is elected.
He gets it from listening to people that do not think before they speak... AKA people like himself.
 
He gets it from listening to people that do not think before they speak... AKA people like himself.

Okay, I found the quote from Obama. It was recorded in July '08 by CNN when he said:
"I'm going to call in the Joint Chiefs of Staff and give them a new mission, and that is to bring the war in Iraq to a close. We're going to get out."

Hello! The JCS doesn't have operational command of the military. The Unified Combatant Command has that role. That would be Gen Petraeus, to be specific. This isn't a minor whoops. He wants to be president, commander-in-chief of the US military, and he doesn't understand the fundamentals of how things work. He claims that he's qualified, but he demonstrates otherwise.

I wonder if he still thinks we have 57 states in the USA?
 
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