Are you effing kidding me?

With the Torx head bolts on the CONTROL ARMS?








That is all.



















OK, I lied. Is there ANY advantage to using a Torx or Allen anything, when a regular old bolt would do just fine?

I mean, the bumper endcaps? Come on.

As if using both SAE and metric wasn't enough...

haha been there and cut my share of torx heads off. yeah they suck i replace them with regular bolts.

damn double posts...

I've been going thru that on this built. Having turned every single bolt on my jeep Im getting real sick of all the different tools I need just to do my final "bolt tightened" check.
Along with the torx I hate those damn 15mm every random damn place, nope, not a 5/8's, wait, it's not a 9/16? then I realize that it is another 15, not so easy to spot by eye.

The advantage to a Torx head (internal or external wrenching) is to manufacturing - the tooling lasts longer, holds the fastener more securely, and may apply more torque safely.

Thus, beancounters like it because it saves some money on each assembly - saving money over the production life of the vehicle. The Torx socket (and externally-wrenching version) was developed in an effort to improve the standard Allen or hex socket.

Be glad it's not a spline drive - A&P's have to deal with those. Also, there's this oddity on British cars called Whitworth - I think I still have some Whitworth sockets somewhere. You can't replace those with standard SAE or ISO threads - the included angle of the thread profile is wrong! You have to drill & tap (or overtap & bush) the hole to accept a standard thread.

My first encounter with Whitworth fasteners (on an MG, I believe) had me swearing in four languages rather loudly...

Here's the oddity - for a given nominal size, the Whitworth thread is actually stronger than the comparable SAE! More people were using the 60-degree "Unified" (later SAE) profile, so it got adopted. Same fiasco that saddled us with the 9m/m as a service round, after we decided it was inferior to the .38 Special we were then using.

"What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular."

The reverse torx ontop of the bellhousing is the most annoying because you cant even see it and barely feel it to determine what it is, ran into it on my YJ and the XJ. I would have been lucky to have misplaced it but instead I some how lost my starter motor bolts while installing my clutch.

See, now, I'm glad you could clarify this for me, rhetorical and mildly irritated as my question was, because I really did want to know. I've noticed we can often rely on you in particular for in-depth answers to questions like this.

We've not met, but are you an ex-pat Brit?

It's just so odd to run into a non-standard fastener in such a very standard place. This is my first Jeep so I'd better get used to it, and of course it's an opportunity to add to my ever-growing tool collection, so that's good (and bad). Can't wait til I have to deal with the bell housing bolts that everyone mentions someday...

Sometimes I wonder if stuff like this was also done in an effort to drive slightly more mechanically adventurous owners back to the dealers for repairs they had been considering doing themselves. "Oh, this thing needs special tools..."

I've heard of those Whitworths. Might delay anything happening with my fascination with old British iron for another few years. At least it wasn't the 1980s when they came up with the idea...

5-90 said:

The advantage to a Torx head (internal or external wrenching) is to manufacturing - the tooling lasts longer, holds the fastener more securely, and may apply more torque safely.

Thus, beancounters like it because it saves some money on each assembly - saving money over the production life of the vehicle. The Torx socket (and externally-wrenching version) was developed in an effort to improve the standard Allen or hex socket.

Be glad it's not a spline drive - A&P's have to deal with those. Also, there's this oddity on British cars called Whitworth - I think I still have some Whitworth sockets somewhere. You can't replace those with standard SAE or ISO threads - the included angle of the thread profile is wrong! You have to drill & tap (or overtap & bush) the hole to accept a standard thread.

My first encounter with Whitworth fasteners (on an MG, I believe) had me swearing in four languages rather loudly...

Here's the oddity - for a given nominal size, the Whitworth thread is actually stronger than the comparable SAE! More people were using the 60-degree "Unified" (later SAE) profile, so it got adopted. Same fiasco that saddled us with the 9m/m as a service round, after we decided it was inferior to the .38 Special we were then using.

"What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular."

Click to expand...

5-90 said:

Be glad it's not a spline drive - A&P's have to deal with those.

Click to expand...

We figured out that most of the time you could take out spline drive bolts with a 12-point socket or box wrench.

I used to work on DeHavilland DHC-8 100 "Dash 8s," and apparently DeHavilland Canada thought that Tri-Wing head screws were the coolest thing ever. I broke many bits and definitely got my moneys worth out of my Snap-On Ez-Out set. So Torx head bolts I can put up with. Except for the huge one on the oil filter housing, that one is a pain.

Hrm. I already had torx bits in the appropriate sizes in my trail tools box, before I ever bought an XJ - so I guess it never occured to me to be annoyed.

On the 15mm subject though; how many of you have a 15mm socket floating in your frame rail? I have at least one, possibly two. I keep meaning to drill a hole and set them free..

Hah. That's totally going to happen to me...

cal said:

Hrm. I already had torx bits in the appropriate sizes in my trail tools box, before I ever bought an XJ - so I guess it never occured to me to be annoyed.

On the 15mm subject though; how many of you have a 15mm socket floating in your frame rail? I have at least one, possibly two. I keep meaning to drill a hole and set them free..

Click to expand...

haha theres one in the MJ and one in my bro's ZJ frame rail lol

I allways pull them out, what a PITA!
my buddy thought I was kinda crazy when I had a socket with a small hole drilled in it and a string tied to it. I explained to him that it sucks to lose one and learned my lesson long ago, but I didnt go into details on it. about a year later he calls me up to help him out, he dropped his only 15mm in the frame and wanted to borrow mine, as soon as he saw it again he busted out laughing and now realized that socket was speceifically for the upper control arm bolt

kristuphir said:

We've not met, but are you an ex-pat Brit?

Click to expand...

Briton? No. My extraction is primarily Scot (Ros & MacLeod,) but I was born & raised in Indiana. I had an "English" teacher in middle school who was particularly annoying about a wide number of things (would give me failing marks on "opinion papers" - not due to errors in spelling/grammar/punctuation, not because my opinion wasn't well-constructed, nor because my supporting logic wasn't sound - but because she didn't agree with my opinion. I couldn't understand that - I was supposed to be writing about my opinion, not hers.) Thus, I called a buddy of mine who had been stationed at RAF Uxbridge with USAFE, and asked him to get me a copy of OED and send it to me.

I started poring over the dictionary to find the differences in spelling and word uses, and then started to apply them to my writing. When I'd get docked for "errors," I'd bring in my OED and point out that it was entirely correct - this is an "English" class, is it not?

I never lost the habit. I find it gives my writing a little flavour (I'm also fond of archaics - for much the same reason.)

@in2fords - it's amazing just how often small modifications and purpose-built are found in hobbyist toolboxes, isn't it? Like the large bent screwdriver in mine - did that one so I could replace halfshafts in my son's Sentra years ago without dropping the differential/final drive into the transaxle case (I only had to replace the driver's side, but you have to pull the pax and push the driver's halfshaft out...) Or the funky bridge puller kit I made - the first time I tore down an AW4, they listed three or four bridge pullers as special tools. So I made one kit and used that - out of shop stock that I keep around.

In addition to the "stubby" wrench set I got a few years ago, you'll find a few wrenches that have been "specially shortened" (a stubby would have been too long or just elsewise not fit) or bent into weird shapes - fire is your friend. Just don't forget to re-harden when you're done bending...

Socket on a string? Yeah, I can see that.

cal said:

On the 15mm subject though; how many of you have a 15mm socket floating in your frame rail? I have at least one, possibly two. I keep meaning to drill a hole and set them free..

Click to expand...

So I'm not the only one. I have one on each side. I'll get them out one day.

5-90 said:

The advantage to a Torx head (internal or external wrenching) is to manufacturing - the tooling lasts longer, holds the fastener more securely, and may apply more torque safely.

Thus, beancounters like it because it saves some money on each assembly - saving money over the production life of the vehicle. The Torx socket (and externally-wrenching version) was developed in an effort to improve the standard Allen or hex socket.

Be glad it's not a spline drive - A&P's have to deal with those. Also, there's this oddity on British cars called Whitworth - I think I still have some Whitworth sockets somewhere. You can't replace those with standard SAE or ISO threads - the included angle of the thread profile is wrong! You have to drill & tap (or overtap & bush) the hole to accept a standard thread.

My first encounter with Whitworth fasteners (on an MG, I believe) had me swearing in four languages rather loudly...

Here's the oddity - for a given nominal size, the Whitworth thread is actually stronger than the comparable SAE! More people were using the 60-degree "Unified" (later SAE) profile, so it got adopted. Same fiasco that saddled us with the 9m/m as a service round, after we decided it was inferior to the .38 Special we were then using.

"What is popular is not always right. What is right is not always popular."

Click to expand...

I got a whole set of spline drives. Those mugs are not cheap!

jeeperjohn said:

I got a whole set of spline drives. Those mugs are not cheap!

Click to expand...

Yeah - you get into some of the oddball and industry-specific stuff, and it can run up in a hurry. There's a huge difference between the anno aluminum -AN wrenches that racers use and the forged steel -AN and -JIC wrenches that hydro mechs use...

Then there's square drive, spline drive, double square, ...

Even in screws - Philips, slotted, pin spanner, Tri-Wing, Torx socket, Robertson, Pozidriv, some funky "offset Philips," removers for "one-way" screws, ... (I've got a set of 1/4" hex insert bits left over from when I was working maintenance - cost me about $300, and if you can't remove it with that kit you reach for a drill...)

5-90 said:

Yeah - you get into some of the oddball and industry-specific stuff, and it can run up in a hurry. There's a huge difference between the anno aluminum -AN wrenches that racers use and the forged steel -AN and -JIC wrenches that hydro mechs use...

Then there's square drive, spline drive, double square, ...

Even in screws - Philips, slotted, pin spanner, Tri-Wing, Torx socket, Robertson, Pozidriv, some funky "offset Philips," removers for "one-way" screws, ... (I've got a set of 1/4" hex insert bits left over from when I was working maintenance - cost me about $300, and if you can't remove it with that kit you reach for a drill...)

Click to expand...

I got a tool that goes in a rivet hammer (just like an air hammer but used for shooting rivets in aircraft) and takes a philips bit. You hammer the head of the screw while turning the tool, it will loosen some very tight stuff without ripping out the screwhead.

OK, OK, I guess some small standard-switching and Torx usage doesn't seem so bad in the face of this list...

5-90 said:

Yeah - you get into some of the oddball and industry-specific stuff, and it can run up in a hurry. There's a huge difference between the anno aluminum -AN wrenches that racers use and the forged steel -AN and -JIC wrenches that hydro mechs use...

Then there's square drive, spline drive, double square, ...

Even in screws - Philips, slotted, pin spanner, Tri-Wing, Torx socket, Robertson, Pozidriv, some funky "offset Philips," removers for "one-way" screws, ... (I've got a set of 1/4" hex insert bits left over from when I was working maintenance - cost me about $300, and if you can't remove it with that kit you reach for a drill...)

Click to expand...

kristuphir said:

OK, OK, I guess some small standard-switching and Torx usage doesn't seem so bad in the face of this list...

Click to expand...

Now you're getting the idea. Work on industrial equipment and hydraulics for a while, and you see the issue. "Close Quarters Wrenches" for -AN and -JIC fittings on 10K# lines aren't cheap... I saw tools I hadn't heard of - and I'd worked on just about everything else up to that point...

in2fords said:

I allways pull them out, what a PITA!
my buddy thought I was kinda crazy when I had a socket with a small hole drilled in it and a string tied to it. I explained to him that it sucks to lose one and learned my lesson long ago, but I didnt go into details on it. about a year later he calls me up to help him out, he dropped his only 15mm in the frame and wanted to borrow mine, as soon as he saw it again he busted out laughing and now realized that socket was speceifically for the upper control arm bolt

Click to expand...

I have one in the driver's side. But I learned that the 1/2 drive deep well socket is longer than the framerail is thick! So it doesn't go in far enough to get stripped of an extension on the way out... It's kinda close, so you still have to be a little bit careful.

bburge