EPA Sect 609 Certification

Just curious about how many of you got your cert in order to buy freon to service your ac. Of course, this only applies if your still running R-12 in your ac.

U.S. EPA to meet technician certification requirements under Section 609 of the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990. It is designed to help you comply with the law, protect the environment and conserve the supply of CFC-12 for future service. The technician is the key to the successful implementation of on-site.
I like the part about "conserve CFC-12 for future service". Makes you wonder what they have in mind...lol.
Who did you go through for certification, my son and I used MACS.

there are acceptable drop in replacements for 12 i ve been told there not really designed for cars because they contain small amounts of either propane or butane i dont remmber but considering i got 20 gallons of combustable liquid nearly under my butt that wouldnt be a concern for me if i recall one of the trade names was hot-shot

dizzymac said:

Who did you go through for certification, my son and I used MACS.

Click to expand...

Got mine through Mainstream.

Got mine threw UTI (universal technical institute) here in Houston, Texas as I went through there auto collision and refinishing program

I also got certified thru Mainstream.

I have been ASE A/C Refrigerant Recovery and recycle certified for the last 10 years.....

And, yes, that does mean I can pruchase both R134 and R12.....AND I can service your system!!

Will I, probably not as I have NO equipment....(I had equipment when I worked for Schuck's and my buddies shop....)

Well, I can't do recovery since I have no equipment. However, I blew my compressor so it all leaked out.

I have a manifold set and a venturi type vacuum so I'm ready to go once I get all my parts. I have another thread already started on this regarding the AC Coupler.

I am.

Just curious, why the question?

As I recall the requirements for the guys who do the certifications and training are somewhat bogus and extreemly vague, as is typical of those sort of requirements. Being a degreed chemical / environmental engineer gives me credentials that far exceed the requirements for trainers much less technicians. What would really tick the EPA off is people dumping refrigerants for any reason and not having and using proper recovery equipment. I have everything I need to do my own Ac work (including a $2000 lab grade vacuum pump), everything except useful recovery equipment so I use a local shop with recovery equipment to drain any refrigerant, if there is any, before I do any repair work.

As of last year, I have switched all my R-12 systems completely over to R-134a, with no problems, including my Nissan / Jeep diesel hybrid!

Regarding the flammables content, propane ....R-12....refrigerant replacement comment below, R-134a is the accepted standard replacement for R-12, it is a drop in replacement (1) for R-12 and does not contain any flammable ingredients. It does require (1) a little less refrigerant, and it is best to replace the o'ring seals and all the hoses with new barrier hose (1), when upgrading to R-134a. It also requires a different oil (1).

Saudade said:

Just curious about how many of you got your cert in order to buy freon to service your ac. Of course, this only applies if your still running R-12 in your ac.

Click to expand...

The drop in replacements for R-12 that are mixtures including propane, butane, etc. are designed to work with the existing oil in the R-12 AC system, thus it is NOT necessary to flush out all the old oil out of the system when converting.

R-134a does NOT mix with mineral oil and thus, the mineral oil will not circulate through the system. That is why you have to switch to the PAG oil, that will mix and circulate. PAG and Mineral are NOT compatible, so you have to flush them out if switching.

Adding a small amount of carbon based refrigerant to the R-134a will mix with the mineral oil and circulate. But, like any refrigerant mixture, there is a huge disadvantage, fractionation?, basically the slightest leak, the part of the mixture with the highest pressure will all leak out first and the mixture will change. So, HOT SHOT and other mixtures, may work great at first, but if you have a slight leak, all the propane/butane will leak out right away and the oil will fail to circulate and your whole AC compressor will seize up.

I respectfully disagree with the statement R-134a is a "drop in replacement" for R-12. It requires a conversion, which may or may NOT be simple. Changing O-rings, seals, hoses, orifices/expansion valves, flushing out all the old oil and replacing it, is hardly a "Drop In". R-134ahas different properties and temp/press of evaporation/condensation; which require different sized evaporators and condensers. Some systems that were designed with barely adequate condensers and have no retro-fit expansion valves available may perform extremely poorly with R-134a as compared to R-12.

There is a ton of info on the Web about converting, I've seen more than one sight with tables/databases of vehicles offering information on how suitable a particular vehicle is to retro-fit to R-134a. Some do very well, some perform extremely poorly, it good information to know before you start a conversion or retro-fit.

We have testimonials here that XJ's work well when converted, many R-12 systems started using barrier hoses, as well many non-barrier hoses seem to work fine with R-134a (the previous use impregnated them with refrigerant molecules that help seal the rubber against diffusion with the smaller R-134a molecule) just as well the seals, many systems started using seals other than "O" rings or the type of "O" ring that is compatible with R-134a (although considering the cost and ease of replacing an 'O' Ring it would be foolish NOT to replace all them with the compatible O-ring during conversion). An expansion valve will adjust itself automatically, albeit to ideal evap pressures for R-12 which is higher than R-134a, if you have an orifice system you'll have to replace the orifice with a smaller one.

If the system was NOT leaking to begin with, has a big condenser, more than was needed for R12, and uses an expansion valve, you very well may get away with just flushing out the old oil and filling with R-134a at 90% capacity for the R-12 and PAG oil and have it perform fine.