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Closed loop, wwhen does it happen?

96cherokee40

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Closed loop, when does it happen?

Can anyone tell me at what temp the computer goes into closed loop mode? I have searched and found nothing. I have also heard that it is determined on intake air temp versus coolant temp. Thanks!
 
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its actually dependant mostly on exhaust temperature. the o2 sensor needs a certain temperature (i believe around 600*) to be accurate. before that point (or if the computer senses something is wrong), it will be open loop
 
h2opete987 said:
its actually dependant mostly on exhaust temperature. the o2 sensor needs a certain temperature (i believe around 600*) to be accurate. before that point (or if the computer senses something is wrong), it will be open loop

in addition to this, the coolant temp needs to get to 160 degrees, iirc.
 
It actually has to do with the temperature of the HEGO sensing element (which is why they're simply "EGO" - Exhaust Gas Oxygen - sensors early on, but they became "HEGO" - Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen - sensors rather quickly.)

The sensor's signal is considered "unreliable" until it reaches operating temperature - somewhere around 600*F (but I'd have to check that. I know it's fairly high.) The feedback loop for fuel trim is "open" when:
  • The EGO/HEGO sensing element is below operating temperature
  • The engine is running at WOT (Wide Open Throttle)
  • The ECU has determined that the EGO/HEGO has "failed" (could be due to a sensor failure or due to a wiring fault)
  • The ECU has determined that the "trim" signal from the EGO/HEGO isn't behaving properly
 
It has been my experience with my 98' that the coolant temp is the primary factor.
I found this out because the downsteam O2 sensor got smashed into the floor and blew the O2 heater fuse.

The unit ran pretty nice until the coolant temp hit just shy of straight up on the guage. Then the engine would act up and run like crap until the O2 values were within a range where it could run normally.

Open loop mode uses a map of values to determine mixture, and when the computer goes closed loop, it takes other factors into consideration, like O2 readings.

If proper O2 readings were required to go closed loop, it would have continued running off that map until the O2 reading was normal. As it was, it was very consistant at goofing up at a certain engine temp.

Left Jeep off for a bit to let coolant temp down, then started back up and ran. It acted up at the same exact place on the guage. When cold in the morning (it was late fall), it would act up further down the road, but at the same exact coolant temp.

When I found the fuse on the diagram, an spent another 2hrs looking for it (These things are SO well marked), the transition went smoothly. I suspect it was because the O2 readings were already nominal at the time of the transition.

Ron
 
Interesting - as I'd understood it, it was always dependent on reliable signals from the O2 sensor - which doesn't have anything to do with ECT readings, since the HEGO isn't anywhere near coolant.

Also, you say the downstream sensor. Stop me if I'm off base - but the downstream doesn't have anything to do with fuel trim - it was added in OBD-II to monitor catalyst efficiency, no? Since the catalyst isn't heated, they could use ECT warmup times to "guess" when the catalyst should light off, and then it could accept signals from the downstream HEGO - but fuel trimming and monitoring is done with the upstream HEGO in the exhaust manifold. Correct?

I suppose it's possible that timing of when to monitor the HEGO could be done by using ECT readings, but that would seem to be unreliable to me (if it always lights off at the same reading on the gage, you'll have varying light-off times, depending on how long the engine had been sitting and ambient temperatures. If you use "so many degrees above ambient," you still have the issue with thermistors having a relatively wide tolerance range, as I've usually seen it. So, that doesn't make much sense to me - it would seem to be better to use a heated sensor tip and have a timer decide when to go into closed loop. EGO sensors used to light off after about four minutes, while HEGO sensors seem to be able to light off in thirty seconds or so, as I recall.)

Sounds like this is something I may have to dig into some more...
 
5-90 said:
Interesting - as I'd understood it, it was always dependent on reliable signals from the O2 sensor - which doesn't have anything to do with ECT readings, since the HEGO isn't anywhere near coolant.

Also, you say the downstream sensor. Stop me if I'm off base - but the downstream doesn't have anything to do with fuel trim - it was added in OBD-II to monitor catalyst efficiency, no? Since the catalyst isn't heated, they could use ECT warmup times to "guess" when the catalyst should light off, and then it could accept signals from the downstream HEGO - but fuel trimming and monitoring is done with the upstream HEGO in the exhaust manifold. Correct?

I suppose it's possible that timing of when to monitor the HEGO could be done by using ECT readings, but that would seem to be unreliable to me (if it always lights off at the same reading on the gage, you'll have varying light-off times, depending on how long the engine had been sitting and ambient temperatures. If you use "so many degrees above ambient," you still have the issue with thermistors having a relatively wide tolerance range, as I've usually seen it. So, that doesn't make much sense to me - it would seem to be better to use a heated sensor tip and have a timer decide when to go into closed loop. EGO sensors used to light off after about four minutes, while HEGO sensors seem to be able to light off in thirty seconds or so, as I recall.)

Sounds like this is something I may have to dig into some more...

It's the same fuse for both O2 sensors. You blow it, and you've got no heater...on either of them, upstream, or downsteam.
 
Zuki-Ron said:
It's the same fuse for both O2 sensors. You blow it, and you've got no heater...on either of them, upstream, or downsteam.

Ah. Doesn't make much more sense (I still don't understand why they'd tie the two together like that...) but it makes some more sense.

The upstream HEGO seems to be rather more important to me than the downstream, and it would merit its own circuit. The downstream doesn't have anything at all to do with actual engine efficiency (as I understand it, anyhow,) and should be fused with some other auxiliary system. Your engine will run fine without the DHEGO - you'll just get a CEL/MIL without a signal from the thing. However, that should be about the only thing you'd see.
 
5-90 said:
Ah. Doesn't make much more sense (I still don't understand why they'd tie the two together like that...) but it makes some more sense.

The upstream HEGO seems to be rather more important to me than the downstream, and it would merit its own circuit. The downstream doesn't have anything at all to do with actual engine efficiency (as I understand it, anyhow,) and should be fused with some other auxiliary system. Your engine will run fine without the DHEGO - you'll just get a CEL/MIL without a signal from the thing. However, that should be about the only thing you'd see.

Well, perhaps they didn't think some fool would replace the cat with an aftermarket that didn't have the bung clocked right, take it off-road and smash the exhaust system into the floor boards. :dunno:

Come on, it made sense to somebody to wire it like that, because they didn't stop doing it that way until they ran out of Jeep parts.
 
Zuki-Ron said:
Well, perhaps they didn't think some fool would replace the cat with an aftermarket that didn't have the bung clocked right, take it off-road and smash the exhaust system into the floor boards. :dunno:

Come on, it made sense to somebody to wire it like that, because they didn't stop doing it that way until they ran out of Jeep parts.

Probably made sense to an accountant. Typically, it's either accountants or lawyers who can be blamed for bad engineering decisions, I've noted.
 
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