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Upgrading Brakes

P

Pharaoh XJ

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Cairo, EGYPT
Well its the same story my brakes simply suck even with stock gearing & 235s , 8,25" AW4

I am planning on upgrading my brakes but I dont know which way to go:

1) Rear disc Conversion
2) 96+ Brake booster + Master Cylinder

They both cost the same around here, labour is relatively cheap, so I am basically looking for braking performance.

My 8,25" is equipped with TRAC LOC, I cant really remember but I think I heared someone say that removing C Clips from Trac-Locs arent quite easy? Is that true ?
 
From my reading, the 8.25" C-clips are much more easily removed if you remove the cross-bar pin. I think wikipedia has a small blip about this if you want clarification.
In any case, I would switch to ZJ disc brakes. hands down - easier maintenance, better performance, better longevity. Can't beat them. Make sure to grab the ZJ proportioning valve as well.
 
I would do #2 before #1. Your rear brakes don't do much, regardless of disc or drum. It's mostly bragging rights to have 4-wheel disc, unless you're in a sports car doing a lot of hot lapping where you really need resistance to fading (most people don't come close to maxing out the stock brake setup, ever).

You say the brakes suck, but what have you done so far to upgrade the stock system? I agree, my stock brakes on this XJ are garbage. But I think rear disc is a waste of money in most cases for what is normally a slowly-driven SUV that weighs less than many sport compacts on the road today @ ~3000lbs.

In most cars I've had, a brake conversion or big brake package is not at all necessary - it's pretty much showing off your credit limit 90% of the time.

I usually start with upgraded pads (Hawk are my favorite, HP+ for street/track in my NASA 944), steel lines, and ATE Super Blue or Gold fluid.

The difference is night and day in both stopping power and fade resistance. No reason to spend several hundred (or sometimes several thousand) on a big brake kit, etc.

The XJ could be different; maybe there aren't any good pads available? I haven't looked yet, but I will be upgrading my brakes in the next week or two. I plan to keep the rear drums, as I don't do too many 100-0 panic stops or hot lapping weekends in my XJ. ;) I already have the larger booster, so I'm just doing the lines, pads and fluid. I expect it to be noticeably improved.
 
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I have a couple of problems with my brakes

1) the pedal is kind of hard
2) Stops fine on the highway but bit difficult to get it to a complete stop in traffic
3) Inspected my rear drums after 100k miles on them & the shoes werent even 1 mm thiner than the new ones (THEY ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING BACK THERE)
 
xL8 APEKSx said:
I would do #2 before #1. Your rear brakes don't do much, regardless of disc or drum. It's mostly bragging rights to have 4-wheel disc, unless you're in a sports car doing a lot of hot lapping where you really need resistance to fading (most people don't come close to maxing out the stock brake setup, ever).

You say the brakes suck, but what have you done so far to upgrade the stock system? I agree, my stock brakes on this XJ are garbage. But I think rear disc is a waste of money in most cases for what is normally a slowly-driven SUV that weighs less than many sport compacts on the road today @ ~3000lbs.

In most cars I've had, a brake conversion or big brake package is not at all necessary - it's pretty much showing off your credit limit 90% of the time.

I usually start with upgraded pads (Hawk are my favorite, HP+ for street/track in my NASA 944), steel lines, and ATE Super Blue or Gold fluid.

The difference is night and day in both stopping power and fade resistance. No reason to spend several hundred (or sometimes several thousand) on a big brake kit, etc.

The XJ could be different; maybe there aren't any good pads available? I haven't looked yet, but I will be upgrading my brakes in the next week or two. I plan to keep the rear drums, as I don't do too many 100-0 panic stops or hot lapping weekends in my XJ. ;) I already have the larger booster, so I'm just doing the lines, pads and fluid. I expect it to be noticeably improved.
Click to expand...

Disagree. First - the XJ weighs more like 3400 in 4WD trim and is heavier than most sport compact, especialy when you factor in the additional rotating mass of 15" steelies and 30+ inch tires. Even 28s on the stock 15s are going to require more braking force.
Next: I don't know about anyone else, but my XJ sees lots of time at 80 MPH and I can say from experience that even the 98+ brakes are only just "acceptable" when put to the task of going from 80 to 40 at the sight of deer / elk on the road. They are also just "OK" from 50 to 30 in the winding mountain roads that are part of my weekly commute.
Also: Drum brakes are harder to clean of trail dust / sand / mud and harder to maintain, requiring more adjustment and more labor to replace shoes.

I'm emotionally invested in the idea that disc brakes are superior in every application to drum brakes.
 
I went from 9 inch to 10's drums with no other changes to the XJ. Panic stop distance from 60 MPH didn't change a bit. With bigger tires then 265 this may change.
By sucking do you mean pedal effort is higher then you would like? The asset upgrade would help in that case or try.
1. drive slower
2. stop sooner
3. downshift
4. get and use a stair master
5 a combination of some or all the above.
 
I am a slow driver
The pedal travel is short & hard ( I now brake with my left )
Its an auto so its in D most of the time putting it in N helps but not much.

any ideas what are the causes of the Hard pedal ?
 
I am all for the rear brake converstion. I am going to be redoing my brakes soon because my brake booster is failing and I only have about an inch and a half of petal left. There is a reason that almost every car that is coming out today has 4 wheel disks; maintenance, reliability, braking force, ect... Its a better system all around. The only thing stopping me from doing the conversion now is lack of funds (xmas) and I need to do a little more research to compleate the total parts list needed for the conversion. When you do the conversion remember that you are most likley going to need to upgrade you BB and master cylinder to make use of the new braking force.
 
Nobody would contest the fact that disc brakes are superior.

It's a question of necessesity or value; I wouldn't spend the money/time on my XJ to put discs on, mainly because with the situations I normally drive in, I doubt I would notice much of a difference...unless maybe I was already under the knife for something else and it wasn't much more money/trouble/hassle.

Things like pedal feel are not corrected by aftermarket upgrades, I would think there's just an issue with your fluid, booster, or something else.
 
For most that do the disk upgrade, its because we're running larger tires and with the larger tires I have seen more of a diffrence in braking with rear disks. Thats just from what I have seen and from what others have stated on the forums here.
 
xL8 APEKSx said:
Nobody would contest the fact that disc brakes are superior.

It's a question of necessesity or value; I wouldn't spend the money/time on my XJ to put discs on, mainly because with the situations I normally drive in, I doubt I would notice much of a difference...unless maybe I was already under the knife for something else and it wasn't much more money/trouble/hassle.

Things like pedal feel are not corrected by aftermarket upgrades, I would think there's just an issue with your fluid, booster, or something else.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. The newer master cylinder and booster changer the pedal feel and the stopping distance.
The upgrade to rear disks is by far the best upgrade especially if the XJ is equipped with an automatic transmission.
Here is a simple test of the rear break shoes stopping power:....

1) Chock both front wheels
2) Raise both back wheels off the ground and support preferbly under the axle.
3) Start engine.
4) With Xfer case in 2 high apply foot brake pressure like you would in you your everyday drive.
5) Shift transmission into drive and release the park break.
Look at your speedo or have someone look at the rear wheels. There is a 9 to1 chance your rear wheels will be turning even though the the engine is running at idle speed.
:wierd:
 
The rear disc brakes are a very worthy upgrade. I sell the kits on a regular basis to people (ZJ Disc Brake Conversion) and I've had absolutely no complaints. I ran the setup my self when I had an 8.25 out back still.

One of the main problems with the XJ DRUM BRAKES is that the shoes don't self adjust like they are supposed to. This obviously, isn't a problem with disc brakes.

You won't have the problem of the brakes locking up when they get wet like drum brakes are prone to, etc.

For the price, ease of install, etc, the disc brake conversion is one of the best mods to do to your XJ if you have an 8.25 out back.
 
Slo-Sho said:
Whoever says the rear disc upgrade doesn't do jack, doesn't know jack.
Click to expand...

Did the rear tera flex disc upgrade on my TJ and it's just okay, at best! I'm ready to just upgrade the fronts to something much better. The fronts are about $750 to upgrade so I wish I would saved the money I wasted on the rear!
 
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Slo-Sho said:
Grabbed the rear brakes off a ZJ for $30...couldn't beat it. And it outperforms my OEM drums any day of the week.
Click to expand...
X2

I converted mine and will be doing my other XJ next year. There IS a difference in braking power. Disks are better.
I am wondering about the uber-firm pedal feel. Have you checked your proportining valve? Booster? Sounds like something isn't right.
 
techno1154 said:
I beg to differ. The newer master cylinder and booster changer the pedal feel and the stopping distance.
The upgrade to rear disks is by far the best upgrade especially if the XJ is equipped with an automatic transmission.
Here is a simple test of the rear break shoes stopping power:....

1) Chock both front wheels
2) Raise both back wheels off the ground and support preferbly under the axle.
3) Start engine.
4) With Xfer case in 2 high apply foot brake pressure like you would in you your everyday drive.
5) Shift transmission into drive and release the park break.
Look at your speedo or have someone look at the rear wheels. There is a 9 to1 chance your rear wheels will be turning even though the the engine is running at idle speed.
:wierd:
Click to expand...
I beg to differ on you begging to differ.

I had the exact same symptoms as the original poster. I could not panic stop, my pedal was hard, and it took a fair amount of effort to stop. I was literally scared to drive my Jeep around, and having my girlfriend or others drive it was completely out of the question.

A single diaphragm booster does not work well when trying to stop 35s. Doesnt matter if you have disks all around, drums, or a combo (which I had) if the booster can not push the brake fluid, you will not stop.

I had seen a bunch of different options here on NAXJA. Rear disks like you said, new booster, bigger front disks and a bunch of other ones. After talking with people I decided to put in a WJ brake booster.

And wow, what a difference it made. I can now almost lock up 35s. Im sorry, but rear disks would not have allowed me to do this. Super happy I did it. Helps so much when wheeling to actually being able to stop, and on the street, I cant imagine what would happen if I had kept the old system.


My bad write-up on how to install the WJ booster. I would recommend the WJ over the 96+ booster.
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=924285
 
I thought the WJ booster and the 97+ XJ booster were the same...?
 
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