Recovery discussion

Just using this true story as a springboard to a general discussion on safety issues. Got this message from another group.

Last Saturday, June 17, a Great Lakes 4WD family member lost his life in tragic accident. Jonathan Blystra 33, was participating in a small town farm run mud bog in Allegan Co. in S.W. Michigan. His truck got stuck. During the extraction, the tow strap broke and the metal clevis came hurling back towards his truck and went through the windshield. He was pronounced dead at scene with the cause of the accident being blunt force trauma.
(While it wasn't fully defined in the police report I suspect that two straps were hooked together with a metal screw clevis and the strap attached to the pulling truck broke.)

Sadly he left behind a wife and three children. Fortunately while they usually attend Jonathan's competitions the family stayed home to prepare for their 12th wedding anniversary.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-8/115072835554910.xml&coll=6



So my question is two part:


1. For those of you who put on events, how do you handle situations where people are being put in danger? Do you lay low and get as far out of the way as possible, Do you try to correct the action? If and when you try to correct the problem, are you frequently brushed off?

2. When you're a trail leader for trail ride, do you inspect the other participants equipment? Do you make them leave 'junk' equipment back at camp? (i..e. pin clevis's, frayed straps, trailer balls) Do you just turn them around and tell them to correct the problem before they come back? Do you have expectations that are printed beforehand that everyone is aware of? Do none of you have this problem and it's just a 'Michigan' thing?

Would appreciate anyone's input and candor on this topic as we have had many discussion in G.L. with respect to insurance and just what our obligations are for the participants in an event. And how potentially dangerous situations are dealt with in your organization?

I feel the need to comment, even though this is not in my chapters forum.

If I as a trail leader or gunner see anything unsafe, it is my responsability to correct the issues immediattly, BEFORE an accident happens. I have not had issues with anyone "brushing me off", of course we all know what is safe, and what is not, so when an obvious unsafe action takes place, it only takes 1 person to speak up.

As a participent I will bring any unsafe activity to the attention of the trail leader, and still speak up to attempt to get the activity safe.

It is not just a MI thing, everyone is guilty of rushing, or just forgeting safety, thinking it "will never happen to me", for just this one time. The thing is...it does happen, it has happened to me, you will be hard pressed to find louder voice if I think that saftey is "sidestepped" on a run I am on. I really do not care if people think I am a dick for speaking up, at least they will still be alive at the end of the trail.

Rev

Good questions Andy. L.O.S.T. KJ WEST actually now has a "Safety Team" to address minimum trail requirements and to go through a checklist of each persons vehicle prior to an event. OUr trail leaders have always stepped in to help in vehicle recovery or to at least make suggestions. So far we have not had any problems getting people in our groups to cooperate and do things the right way.
It leads me to think that a "recovery team" should be part of any large organized trail ride. We at L.O.S.T. require minimum equipment consisting of proper front and rear recovery points and straps w/out hooks, only loop style & in good condition. I have seen people w/ the minimum equipment but not in good condition or they were not sure how to properly use it.
I am now thinking that we (L.O.S.T.) might designate certain people on a trail ride as the recovery experts and make sure their recovery equipment and knowledge is up to speed. This way we won't have to worry as much about someone using the wrong equipment or damaged equipment or them not really knowing what they are doing. AAMAF, I think I will discuss this w/ our club and look into putting together a couple nice recovery kits to be carried in the mid gunners vehicles in case they are needed.

BTW, I Totally agree w/ Rev. I Am a dick and I will be heard if needed!

On the trips I tend to lead there is anywhere from 2 to 10 rigs.... most vari from stock to moderately equiped. Much of the time I try to gear the run towards the mass of the group. (i.e. more stock then the easier the run)
There are usually a few of us with tools & some parts & a little mechanical knowledge..... the good thing is there is enough back roads, so if it'll roll we can usually get it back. On the smaller trips I don't mind if a rig isn't equiped with ALL the extras.... on a larger trips I do see the need for "inspections".
I try to voice my concerns when I see potiential risk, but there's always the Jackass (wait I'm a Jackass) make that the "Stubborn Jackass" who knows way more than I even will so at that point I stay clear & make the others nearby aware of my concerns.
Once down in the Superstitions I needed a strap..... and the guy started to break out his brand spankin new strap with hooks..... I politely declinded (in front of a lot of people) and grabbed my 2" woven rope and a got tugged 3ft.
I also explaind to the good samaritian (spl) the + & - of the hooks. Back in the early 90's I saw a guy break a strap and take out his rear window....
I've only turned one guy away and I can't really remember why.... I think he was getting in over his head and it was then or never so I pointed a way out.
I'm sure most of y'all run with folks who are at least minimally (spl) prepared.
I usually run with the same dozen or so rigs who are smart enough to know better.

See Ya !
Curt

Xtreme XJ said:

On the trips I tend to lead there is anywhere from 2 to 10 rigs.... most vari from stock to moderately equiped. Much of the time I try to gear the run towards the mass of the group. (i.e. more stock then the easier the run)
There are usually a few of us with tools & some parts & a little mechanical knowledge..... the good thing is there is enough back roads, so if it'll roll we can usually get it back. On the smaller trips I don't mind if a rig isn't equiped with ALL the extras.... on a larger trips I do see the need for "inspections".
I try to voice my concerns when I see potiential risk, but there's always the Jackass (wait I'm a Jackass) make that the "Stubborn Jackass" who knows way more than I even will so at that point I stay clear & make the others nearby aware of my concerns.
Once down in the Superstitions I needed a strap..... and the guy started to break out his brand spankin new strap with hooks..... I politely declinded (in front of a lot of people) and grabbed my 2" woven rope and a got tugged 3ft.
I also explaind to the good samaritian (spl) the + & - of the hooks. Back in the early 90's I saw a guy break a strap and take out his rear window....
I've only turned one guy away and I can't really remember why.... I think he was getting in over his head and it was then or never so I pointed a way out.
I'm sure most of y'all run with folks who are at least minimally (spl) prepared.
I usually run with the same dozen or so rigs who are smart enough to know better.

See Ya !
Curt

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If they were 'smart enough' they wouldn't be wheelin' with the likes of you (and/or US!)
Rick R:flame:

and quit with the (spl) thing, everyone knows its (sp) dumb arse!
(Who loves you Curt? )
Rick R:flame:

Id like to know if there is a proper way to attach two straps without choking them together, and making a permanent really long strap. I have a couple of those in my garage, that my kid's used to pull a juniper bush out of the yard...from the street.

-Dan

Dan Turner said:

Id like to know if there is a proper way to attach two straps without choking them together, and making a permanent really long strap. I have a couple of those in my garage, that my kid's used to pull a juniper bush out of the yard...from the street.

-Dan

Click to expand...

I don't think there is a way to attach them to each other without as you call it choking them together. No matter how you look at it a clevis on the straps is a bad idea as if something breaks it will fly and we're back to the metal hook setup. On the other hand if you take one loop and feed it partially through the eye of the other loop and then feed the other end of the strap through that partially sticking out loop even if it chokes itself since it's a thick strap it should be easy to "unchoke" with a phillips screwdriver.

Jump This said:

and quit with the (spl) thing, everyone knows its (sp) dumb arse!
(Who loves you Curt? )
Rick R:flame:

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Make it (spelling) then....AND thats...JackASS to you....:twak:

Curt

I was interested, since I used to live in Allegan County, the link does not work And very good points have been made, good thinking Andy!

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-8/115072835554910.xml&coll=6

Kejtar said:

......On the other hand if you take one loop and feed it partially through the eye of the other loop and then feed the other end of the strap through that partially sticking out loop even if it chokes itself since it's a thick strap it should be easy to "unchoke" with a phillips screwdriver.

Click to expand...

That would be a "loop to loop" and I think that's probably the best way to connect straps together. Just my .02.

Kyung

First of all... Remi, Dan, and Kyung...

To have one strap make two simply loop them together and put a stick in between the two where they meet. That way when they are pulled together they will not truly mate, the stick will keep them seperated. I would not suggest taking them apart with a screwdriver Choose a thick stick but not long. That way if one of the straps breaks it won't be a dangerous projectile however it will be strong enough not to be squished out of hand.

Now for the meaty part.

When runnig events I very rarly do technical inspections. If the run is such that I feel it necessary I will however. If I see bad equipment I will assess the situation at that point and decide whether to turn them away or let them run.

If somebody has a problem that can be run with (bad straps can be left in rigs) I will alert them to the problem and share gear.

If I ever see people doing something in an unsafe manor I will step up. I've probably informed people about winch wheights and hook placement about half a dozen times over the years. I will go there, stop them, tell them what they are doing wrong and suggest a correction. The asshole side of me will come out if they don't correct the problem however that has never happened. I will do this whether I'm the trail leader or not, in fact I'll do this to the trail leader if I'm just a lowly participant.

Sequoia

I prefer the hands off approach if some one is doing something stupid. Run and hide while Darwin takes care of the rest.

Seriously though, I would hope that any one of us would correct an unsafe situation.

-Dan

GSequoia said:

I would not suggest taking them apart with a screwdriver

Click to expand...

Actually a phillips screwdriver is a good tool to use to get in a middle of a knot. There are tools similar to that when you're dealing with ropes and need to untie a stubborn knot. The rounded head of a phillips allows you to get it through without cutting the rope/strap.

To have one strap make two simply loop them together and put a stick in between the two where they meet. That way when they are pulled together they will not truly mate, the stick will keep them seperated. I would not suggest taking them apart with a screwdriver Choose a thick stick but not long. That way if one of the straps breaks it won't be a dangerous projectile however it will be strong enough not to be squished out of hand.

Click to expand...

The stick trick is cool, although they are not always available.

Recovery is a great subject to discuss.

Thanks for bringing it up Andy.

I think the best way to do this At ALL

is to run synthetic rope.


I run a synthetic winch rope, with a safety thimble on it..

My tow rope is a synthetic winch rope extension, and even with clevis's on it, will not go flying.


another good idea is to use a floor mat, or winch bag to hang on the line, if the clevis snaps, the tow strap will be forced into the dirt

When using two straps in recovery you would won't to use like a wood doll through the loops .This is what Tom Severin of Badlands off road adventures teach's in his basic training class.

http://www.4x4training.com

Tom and I carry a couple of doll's in our winch kits.You should see the one he show's to his class ,as it is conpressd were the straps has been used on it .


Lion

Lion Grrrrr said:

Tom and I carry a couple of doll's in our winch kits.You should see the one he show's to his class ,as it is conpressd were the straps has been used on it .


Lion

Click to expand...

Lion,

Everyone knows your dolls are inflatable