Welding to engine block?

I've had my '95 XJ just over two years and have broken the same motor mount three times already. First time was right after I got it from the used car dealer. His shop fixed it ( broke off bolt heads). Second time , same problem. Told him to use grade 8 bolts. This time, a block away from his shop I hit a pothole. I limped it into the shop, just at closing time. They said they would work on it the next day. I left my work and cell numbers, with instructions to call if any problems. Got no call, I work a 24 hr. shift at the fire dept. However, they did call my home to say it was done. When I went to get it I discovered that they decided to weld a plate to the engine block, over the bolt holes, and weld up a "bridge" to the frame part of the mount, thus making it a solid mount on that side. Needless to say I am PISSED!! It vibrates like a cheap hotel bed! The service manager told me it was the only way to fix it without replacing the block! I talked to the owner of the place and he of course agreed with the manager, but apologized for not calling me with their intentions. He also said that they will attempt to rig up some kind of bracketry to attach to other points on that side of the block to get it to rubber mount again. What are your feelings about welding onto a block? Will it hold? I don't want to be wheeling when it happens again.

Jack

I think if you have broken the same mount 3 times, you have another issue here. I have never broken a mount in 13 years (knock on wood) seems to me that something else is amiss.


Rev

BlackJack95 said:

I've had my '95 XJ just over two years and have broken the same motor mount three times already. First time was right after I got it from the used car dealer. His shop fixed it ( broke off bolt heads). Second time , same problem. Told him to use grade 8 bolts. This time, a block away from his shop I hit a pothole. I limped it into the shop, just at closing time. They said they would work on it the next day. I left my work and cell numbers, with instructions to call if any problems. Got no call, I work a 24 hr. shift at the fire dept. However, they did call my home to say it was done. When I went to get it I discovered that they decided to weld a plate to the engine block, over the bolt holes, and weld up a "bridge" to the frame part of the mount, thus making it a solid mount on that side. Needless to say I am PISSED!! It vibrates like a cheap hotel bed! The service manager told me it was the only way to fix it without replacing the block! I talked to the owner of the place and he of course agreed with the manager, but apologized for not calling me with their intentions. He also said that they will attempt to rig up some kind of bracketry to attach to other points on that side of the block to get it to rubber mount again. What are your feelings about welding onto a block? Will it hold? I don't want to be wheeling when it happens again.

Jack

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aren't the engine blocks CAST IRON? welding cast is bad, at least to me it is..

besides, now its only a matter of time before the other motor mount breaks... or you rip a hole in the side of your block... unless I am picturing something other than what your describing.

but don't take my word, I am just an ape.

Rev Den said:

I think if you have broken the same mount 3 times, you have another issue here. I have never broken a mount in 13 years (knock on wood) seems to me that something else is amiss.


Rev

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lead foot?

RINGKONG said:

lead foot?

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I don't think so, but it is a standard, so I guess it would torque more.

I guess I'm more ticked at what they did without my approval than actually breaking a piece off the block. I have to take their word for that, since where the bolt should be is all welded up and covered with flat iron. I showed this to a garage near my house that usually does work on it and they couldn't believe it. That mechanic said that if the welds got good penetration it may hold, but he had alot of doubt.:dunno:

I have no doubt you are upset. Yes, they should have consulted you, and welding the block to the frame does sound a little strange. I still go back to the original issue, something is not right. I have a 5 speed also, I have beaten it pretty hard, when i changed the mounts with the engine after 160K they were still in good shape. I don't know what could be wrong, maybe a tweaked structure? A binding in the drive train? To much gear & tire? I would not only get rubber between the block and frame, but also further investigate the reason the mount is letting go.


Rev

My fear would be that, no matter how good the weld is, there needs to be some kind of isolator between the engine and chassis. Not just because of vibrations but because the engine and chassis will try to flex independently of each other, and something will have to give. Even if the weld does hold, is your frame going to get tweeked the first time you take it off road and your drivetrain or chassis start to flex and twist?

Good luck man, I wouldn't stand for it and I think that the Better Business Bureau would back you up since other professional mechanics clearly disagree with what they did.

Marcus

Welding to block

Any welding to the engine block would have to be heat treated afterwards to prevent cracking around the weld area and warping of the block. This would involve several hours of slowly heating and cooling the block at a contolled rate. There are certainly other issues in breaking motor mounts such as engine alignment, bad tranny mounts or tweaked body and they should have been addressed by the shop before performing work that can't be undone (without your permission no less). Now there will be new issues such as the transfer of loads to the frame at one hard point and the effects of torsion on the drivetrain. I hope you can resolve this without legal action because IMHO thats just bad work. Good luck!

Hard to believe!!

Whew, that's almost a new low!!

First of all they very much should have called you before doing something so unusual!! Second, a solid mount is never a good thing....esp with the std mount still on the other side. Third, something sounds really wrong to be breaking mounts and the such so often. Should never really have a problem with that. There are problems elsewhere....

If someone in that shop really knew how to weld cast, i would be totally surprised, esp considering how this place sounds. Is sometimes possible to have good welding results with this type of thing but you gotta know what you're doing.

I'd persue the hell outa this!!

I agree with everybody else here, this never should have happened. Personally I wouldn't be satisified until the shop gave me a new block. I mean, they've welded over the motor mount, welded to your frame, basically, I'd be very afraid of warpage of the block at this point. This isn't even considering the effects of having a solid mount engine!

Solid mount engines are for Harleys, not Jeeps!

Thanks for all the input. I'm not going to rest until this is repaired to my satisfaction. I'll give them a chance to make good, but they are far from being off the hook. I get the feeling they know what they did was wrong and that legal recourse is a possibility. Right now it's just wait & see what they will do to correct the problem.

P.S. My 22 year old Harley is smoother that my XJ!

Welding on cast eye-ron causes embrittlement around the area of weld...IMO you will pull the side of the block off the 1st time you torque and twist it, spewing either antifreeze or oil all over the ground. I would take it back and ask them if they want it up their A$$ sideways, or straight in. I would settle for nothing less than another engine in equal or better shape, then before signing off on it, have a REAL mechanic look at it to make sure they didn't mickey-mouse anything else on it. And they should supply you with all the paperwork to account for that motor being in that chassis (for inspection purposes, and get it smog checked). Make them supply you with a loaner car while they are doing all of this, too.

whoozey1953 said:

... And they should supply you with all the paperwork to account for that motor being in that chassis (for inspection purposes, and get it smog checked).

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Yeah, the engine must be same age or newer than the chassis.

Or, a remanufactured short block from PepBoys or similar mainstream supplier, with a warranty. Not something put together by his buddy around the corner.

Check with the Better Business Bureau. He may have other complaints. I have the feeling this guy doesn't know squat about major auto repairs.

Only one other poster noted this but did it ever occur to anyone that a vehicle that is breaking motor mounts regularly has something ELSE wrong besides the mount proper???????????

Auto engineers (and the accountants that make decisions for them at the car companies) go to great lengths to make sure that things like motor mounts are strong enough to handle the designed loads imposed on them. The key words here are DESIGNED LOADS IMPOSED.

SOMETHING ELSE is wrong with your vehlce, causing the motor mounts to be stressed in some way beyond the design limits. Welding on the block (or any other half-assed repair) only MASKS the real culprit, even if the jury rigged repair works.

I am betting you have a more fundamental problem, like a bent frame, or the like, that is stressing the motor mount unnaturally.

Get someone who knows what he is doing to look at this vehicle, and use that diagnosis to go after the shop who cobbled up the welded repair.

My 95 Cherokee Sport,has also sheared the heads off the motor mount bolts 3 times.From what I have heard,this a common problem.
I did an internet search on Jeep problems a couple years ago,and found many complaints regarding this very problem.
All the force of torque and engine weight ,sits on the side of 3 little 3/8" bolts,and they just cant stand the abuse.
I wonder if this was something that was changed in later model years?
The 1st 2 times that this happened I was able to drill out the remaining portion of the bolt and remove them.The third time I was not so lucky.I was able to remove 1 out of the 3 bolts.
I actually just welded the inner portion of the mount to the engine block without using any other brackets or extra steel.
It is a 2 piece mount so I still have the rubber and the vibration dampening effect.Its been 3 years now,and many bumpy roads with no problem.

Lewis said:

My 95 Cherokee Sport,has also sheared the heads off the motor mount bolts 3 times.From what I have heard,this a common problem.
All the force of torque and engine weight ,sits on the side of 3 little 3/8" bolts,and they just cant stand the abuse.

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Although motor mount problems in XJ's are not unheard of, I doubt the size of the bolts is the issue here. (My Cessna 150 AIRPLANE WING was only held on by THREE 3/8 inch bolts!)

The problem is the bolts get LOOSE, and once they do, THEN THEY BREAK. The key here is to TORQUE TO SPEC, and use thread locker (LOCTITE) if possible.

i welded mine back together after this


i heated the block with a torch then mig welded the bracket to the block. it has been two years since then no problems.

Lewis & Mark91,
From your descriptions it sounds as if welding is an option, if done by some one with proper materials and experience. It's doubtful this is the case here. As I said earlier, I am giving him the chance to correct the problem, but it MUST be to my satisfaction. I wish I had taken a picture of the mount after they had welded it up. If they felt that the welds on the block were strong enough why didn't they just leave it at that? Why weld up bridge pieces to the frame part of the mount?

As of now they said they will try to find other mounting points on that side of the block and fab up some bracketry with iron obtained from a boilermaking company across the street from their garage. I would feel alot more confident if they just took it over there and have some one there repair it. (Some one that knows how to weld & fabricate).

BlackJack - I doubt that I would even let them f*** with it that much. At this point they are just jurt-rigging an accident-in-waiting for you.

You still have other issues to address with the ongoing motor mount breakage, but I don't see them making things better, only worse.

Do you have pictures yet? If not, walk in there with a disposable camera and shoot the whole roll at various angles showing the butcher job they're doing. Ask to see certification that the welder in question has experience welding to a cast block. Find a lawyer and have them draft a letter (on letterhead) asking what the resolution will be. You are not obligated to follow that up with court time, but (unfortunately) having a letter from a lawyer seems to get things headed in the right direction all too often. Talk to the BBB. Write a letter to the BBB and copy the shop on it as well. The BBB is very good at getting reactions from many companies, let's see if this is one of them.

Jim