Need hub/bearing and balljoint advice...long

Last week I had all of my balljoints replaced at a local shop (my wife won't let me perform involved projects like that due to my cursing and swearing when things don't go right). My XJ is a 00 Classic with 81K. Anyway just the other day, I noticed a squeak coming from the front left side. Sounded kinda like a rubbery sounding intermittent squeak so I peaked underneath and noticed the rubber boot on the lower driver side ball joint was pulled down a bit, revealing the metal and grease beneath. I figured that was the cause of my squeak.

I took it back to the shop (note: the owner wasn't there, just one young mechanic and the guy that normally works the phone and desk) and they pulled the tire and hub off and noticed there was quite a bit of play between the bearing housing and hub. Then the guy went over to check the other side and did the 12/6 o clock check on the tire. He noticed the tire had a lot play and let me check it out...yep, plenty of movement. Well crap, now it looks like I now gotta get 2 new hub assemblies (they had to check if the whole assembly was required...they must not work on jeeps often). How can that happen a few days after balljoint replacement??????

Here comes the weird part. The fella slapped the driver side hub back on and tightened her to spec. Still had play but tightened it a little more past spec and all play is gone...same with the other side, it's as tight as can be. Then I noticed the squeak again and I looked underneath and the rubber boot slid down again. Called the shop up and they said that they needed to research the torque thing and check the ball joint to see what's going on.

Do you think my bearings are still bad? Are my hubs over torqued now or is their torque wrench out of spec? There was a little play when the hub assembly was off but is that normal? I know there shouldn't be any play when you do the tire test but even when the hubs are off? What about this ball joint boot? They want me to bring it back in a couple of days for a closer look, it was late and they were trying to get home I guess.

Sorry for the long story. I can't imagine both wheel bearings going bad right after getting my ball joints replaced. You think there would have been some indication that they were bad when the ball joints were replaced.

I wouldn't think the hubs were overtorqued, as the proper torque spec is "stand on the break-over" tight or half inch impact tight.
I think it may be possible that the tech didn't tighten the hub nuts tight enough during reassembly, but I can't be sure without putting my own hands on it.

When does the squeak occur?

That's good to hear about the torque....yeah, that was my first impression...he didn't torque them enough after he replaced the balljoints.

The squeak occurs after a few minutes of driving and is most noticable at around 20mph. It's intermittent, kinda sounds like it occurs at every couple of tire rotations and sometimes seems to also squeak when there's a bump in the road. Doesn't really sound like metal on metal either. I had a wheel bearing go out on my 88 XJ and it was a different, harsher sound. This sound sounds like some small baby animal trapped under my car squeaking in rhythm. Very bizarre...

That balljoint boot isn't seated evenly...there's a 1/8" gap between the boot and metal part of the balljoint on the inside and a little less than 1/16" on the outside. I remember them mentioning something about inconsistent casting and I don't think they really address it...I'm still hoping that's what's causing the noise.

4WD or 2WD? If 4WD it may be your U-Joints.

If you have a 4wd, maybe the guys pulled your hub bearings apart when they removed the hubs to change the ball joints. If that's what happened then you need new hub assemblies. There shouldn't be any play in the bearings of the hub even if the axle nut isn't torqued down.

K

corbinafly said:

If you have a 4wd, maybe the guys pulled your hub bearings apart when they removed the hubs to change the ball joints. If that's what happened then you need new hub assemblies. There shouldn't be any play in the bearings of the hub even if the axle nut isn't torqued down.

K

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Yeah, it's 4wd. So is it fairly common that hub bearings can get damaged when pulling the hubs? Not really sure I understand how they could have gotten damaged. I'll agree with you on this, it seems that there shouldn't be any play even if the hubs aren't tight enough. Wish I had more experience with this set up, I'm a little afraid that I might not be explaining things correctly. I'm also concerned by the lack of confidence the two fellows have with this. Maybe the actual owner can give me a more solid answer. ...I hope!

rumblebelly said:

Yeah, it's 4wd. So is it fairly common that hub bearings can get damaged when pulling the hubs? Not really sure I understand how they could have gotten damaged. I'll agree with you on this, it seems that there shouldn't be any play even if the hubs aren't tight enough. Wish I had more experience with this set up, I'm a little afraid that I might not be explaining things correctly. I'm also concerned by the lack of confidence the two fellows have with this. Maybe the actual owner can give me a more solid answer. ...I hope!

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There will be play if there not tight enough.
Balljoints don't usally squeek but U-Joints do.

rumblebelly said:

Yeah, it's 4wd. So is it fairly common that hub bearings can get damaged when pulling the hubs? Not really sure I understand how they could have gotten damaged.

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If you pull on the wheel flange, it's VERY easy to damage to bearing. It's been claimed here that if you keep the axle and axle nut torqued, it's possible to safely use a puller, but I'd be very leary about it.

I've ruined a couple of hubs by not getting enough torque on the axle nut. Factory spec on my 94 is 175 ft./lbs.

So it's quite possible they trashed my hub bearings? Maybe I need a 2nd opinion.

That balljoint boot isn't seated evenly...there's a 1/8" gap between the boot and metal part of the balljoint on the inside and a little less than 1/16" on the outside. I remember them mentioning something about inconsistent casting and I don't think they really address it...I'm still hoping that's what's causing the noise.

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The balljoint has a grease seal that's easy to break by overfilling the joint with grease. Joint should be lubed until the boot is firm to the touch, but no grease should be visible.

Thanks Otto, and everyone else who has chimed in. There's definitely grease visible. I'll probably demand them to get the boot fixed or replace the whole ball joint.

I might have failed to mention that I get a mild thunk from the front end when going over bumps. Perhaps that could be wheel bearing related...

I want my old 88 XJ back, I wish I never sold it. It always seemed more "solid".

Well, they took another look and although they said the tire doesn't move around they should still be replaced...said they feel kinda gritty or something like that. Anyway, I feel weird about this whole thing because the bearings seemed just fine before I had them replace my ball joints and they wanna charge me around $324 for each bearing. Seems a little high, especially since the job will be easier for them now that all the crud has been removed.

I'll probably just keep an eye on them and replace them myself when need be. Seems really simple and it looks like they did all the hard work, breaking through the rust and crud. I'll just need to get a decent torque wrench and a 36mm socket. Make sure I have the right socket for the hub bolts.

I've shopped around for hub assemblies. Autozone has Timkin's for $109 and Carquest has BAC Bower (sp?) for $133. Which should I go for? I heard good things about both.

12 point 13mm socket for the hub bolts.

$109 for AZ's Timkens is a good buy.

rumblebelly said:

Well, they took another look and although they said the tire doesn't move around they should still be replaced...said they feel kinda gritty or something like that. Anyway, I feel weird about this whole thing because the bearings seemed just fine before I had them replace my ball joints and they wanna charge me around $324 for each bearing. Seems a little high, especially since the job will be easier for them now that all the crud has been removed.

I'll probably just keep an eye on them and replace them myself when need be. Seems really simple and it looks like they did all the hard work, breaking through the rust and crud. I'll just need to get a decent torque wrench and a 36mm socket. Make sure I have the right socket for the hub bolts.

I've shopped around for hub assemblies. Autozone has Timkin's for $109 and Carquest has BAC Bower (sp?) for $133. Which should I go for? I heard good things about both.

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Since they had them out recently there should be no real problem pulling them again. I think it's almost certain that they either pulled them apart taking them out the first time, or forgot to torque them properly putting them back, or both. They probably feel "gritty" now because when they were loose dirt and crud crept in past the seals, and is now in the process of ruining the bearings, but it might just be a seal scraping a little. By the way, I did once accidentally pull a hub apart, but put it back together immediately before dirt could get in, and it lasted a very long time after that. If the hubs are now tight, I would hold off for a while and see how they do.

I would not go back to that shop. I don't think they know what they're doing, and they're not being straight with you. If you do have to do the hubs, tell your wife to put cotton in her ears, and do it yourself.

That is an unusually short life for XJ ball joints, by the way. What happened there?

Matthew Currie said:

Since they had them out recently there should be no real problem pulling them again. I think it's almost certain that they either pulled them apart taking them out the first time, or forgot to torque them properly putting them back, or both. They probably feel "gritty" now because when they were loose dirt and crud crept in past the seals, and is now in the process of ruining the bearings, but it might just be a seal scraping a little. By the way, I did once accidentally pull a hub apart, but put it back together immediately before dirt could get in, and it lasted a very long time after that. If the hubs are now tight, I would hold off for a while and see how they do.

I would not go back to that shop. I don't think they know what they're doing, and they're not being straight with you. If you do have to do the hubs, tell your wife to put cotton in her ears, and do it yourself.

That is an unusually short life for XJ ball joints, by the way. What happened there?

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The owner actually admitted to me that pulling the hubs out might have caused a premature failure. However, I don't know if I'd ever have any recourse for something like that. The squeaking from the driver's side is getting worse now, although I can't find any play in the tire and the u joints look okay (to my eyes, I'm not good with diagnosing u joint failure). When they had the bearings out last week, I did feel the wheel bearing on that side and they do seem dry.

The ball joint failure was bizarre. I took my jeep to this guy because I was trying to figure out what was going on with my brakes, they were clunking and clicking on the right side. While he was digging around those, he placed a pry bar under the tire and looked for ball joint play. He even showed me and I saw them move a bit, seems like 1/4". I had him replace them and he showed me the old ones and they looked real bad (of course, it's possible he keeps old ball joints around for that purpose but I doubt it). He talked me into replacing both sides because it could turn into a situation where I'd be "chasing problems".

I kinda agree with my limited experience, it is weird to have all of these parts go out so early on this thing.

Anyway, he did fix the brake problem that two other guys failed to figure out (something was sticking by the caliper pins, I think that spacer and it was causing the caliper to get cocked somehow). I gotta give him credit for that I guess.

I'm not sure what to do now. They said they fixed that balljoint boot but it still doesn't look like it's sealing okay, looks a little wedged in there. I'm worried that it will fail prematurely too. Argghhh....I'm having a helluva time finding a decent mechanic around here. I wish I had the time and patience to do it myself.

i'm inclined to belive they damaged the bearings when they did the ball joints. it's pretty hard to prove it though, and he knows it.

The only reason I have to go back to this guy is the ball joints. Here's a couple of pics, the first one is the passenger side. The top ball joint boot looks a little squished...is that normal?

http://spaces.msn.com/members/kansasdeathklutch/PersonalSpace.aspx?_c11_PhotoAlbum_spaHandler=TWljcm9zb2Z0LlNwYWNlcy5XZWIuUGFydHMuUGhvdG9BbGJ1bS5GdWxsTW9kZUNvbnRyb2xsZXI%24&_c11_PhotoAlbum_spaFolderID=cns!1pU6WmkJ3maHAwsfWmQXVc9A!111&_c=PhotoAlbum&_c02_owner=1

In the second picture is the driver's side. The bottom ball joint boot doesn't look quite seated to me, it looks a little cocked. Is there anything to worry about?

http://spaces.msn.com/members/kansasdeathklutch/PersonalSpace.aspx?_c11_PhotoAlbum_spaHandler=TWljcm9zb2Z0LlNwYWNlcy5XZWIuUGFydHMuUGhvdG9BbGJ1bS5GdWxsTW9kZUNvbnRyb2xsZXI%24&_c11_PhotoAlbum_spaFolderID=cns!1pU6WmkJ3maHAwsfWmQXVc9A!111&_c=PhotoAlbum&_c02_owner=1

I've also found it interesting that on the passenger side the top ball joint boot is blue and the bottom is black. However the colors are opposite on the driver's side (black is on the bottom and blue is on the top). Is that something that usually happens????? Funny how the black boots look goofy while the blue ones don't.

Re: Need hub/bearing and ball joint advice...long

I've talked to a couple of guys and have seen posts about BCA hubs, that kind of bring up the question, of there product specifications. Three of us now, me included, have a pop (that wasn't there before the hub replacement) in the new hub, Which may be a loose spline thing, but I don't really know for sure, as I haven't checked it real close since installation. I do know the wheel studs (on the new hub) are close to 13 MM (1/2") all the way to the base and the holes in my brake rotors are closer to 15 MM. The original OEM hub studs had a raised area (or maybe a bushing, it's hard to tell through the rust) for the last 10 MM of the stud at the base, which is real close to 15 MM.
I also noticed when I tightened down the hub nut, that the bearings slipped a little, which made me nervous. They may have not of been seated all the way. Though I do have a few thousand miles on the hub now and other than the occasional pop, it seems to work fine.
I think if I buy another hub, it's gonna be something other than BCA.

When I replaced the unit hubs on the better halfs 98, I went to NAPA and picked up a set there. If I remember right, the manufacturer is SKF and on the box, it says they have a lifetime warranty. I can double check, but I think the price was about 130 bux. Ill let you know in about 100k miles or so how they are doing

Rumblebelly,
If you decide to tackle the unit hub project yourself (which is well within your range if they are handy with tools), make sure you get the right tools to do the job. The first time I did it, I had to break free all the grime and rust to free the unit hub. The bolts that held the hub on were so tight and rusted, I split my 13mm craftsman socket. I dont think you would have that problem here since they have been off already recently. They are a bit hard to find but see if you can find a 12 point, 13mm, 1/2inch drive impact socket. Its the best socket I've ever seen for doing the unit hub job. I got mine at www.mcmaster.com. Part number is 7205A48 The socket that came is made by Proto. If you split this one, you have other, more serious problems!!!!! Its a hefty socket and well suited for taking off the 3 hub bolts.

If you have the time, do the job yourself. You can do the unit hub job in a couple hours tops and save some cash at the same time. Its the BEST way to learn about your jeep and keep it going right. Besides, everyone here is more than willing to help point you in the right direction if you run into problems. Before you do it, let everyone know and we can give you a list of what you will need to have on hand before you start.

Dave

Opppssss...forgot to comment on your upper ball joint on the passenger side. Looks like someone overgreased it and it unseated the rubber....hard to tell. Its not supposed to be like that and will allow dirt and grime to get into the ball joint over time. Its certainly not supposed to look like that just leaving a repair shop. If they let that get out of the door, my guess is that they dont do the best work around. I know you are stuck to have to deal with them for now, but I dont think I would do much biz with them in the future. Misery loves company... we have the same quality work at a lot of places around here. Makes another good case for you to do the job yourself. Now comes the fun part in finding out how much they subscribe to customer satisfaction

Dave,

Regarding the ball joint thing, do they need to pull the sucker apart to reseat it? The TWO times I've already had it in there to fix the boot I think all they did was try to stuff it back in with their fingers.

This afternoon I'm gonna go to a 4x4 shop and see what they say about it. It's hard to tell from those pics exactly what's going on and it would be better for someone to actually look at it personally.

I'm thinking I'll do the hubs this weekend but I wanna get this balljoint thing taken care of before I do that. I don't want them screwing up new hubs in case they have to remove them again to reseat the boots.

I have no excuse not to replace the hubs myself. I used to work on rather large riding lawnmowers as a kid for my old man...pulled all kinds of bearings, tore down and slapped back together entire drivetrains. I've just had some rough experiences working on my own cars...ending up stranded without a ride or killing an entire day on a 30 min job.