Water in the Exhaust

I searched, and found a few answers, but thought I'd ask again.

1997 4.0L after starting cold, water drips from the tailpipe and also from the hole in my muffler. once the exhuast heats up enough only a few drops of water will come out along with copious amounts of steam. the tailpipe is wringed with carbon also. the exhaust doesn't really smell too much, just a little rich maybe?
anyway, I know a little water is normal but when is it too much? my check engine light is not on and the only code I get is 55-end of codes- exhaust manifold and back was replaced before I bought the vehicle, along with one of the o2 sensors ~50,000mi ago, but the was re-used*along with its o2 sensor.

spark plugs and wires are old, but the engine runs smooth, what all should I check and where do I start?

this photo is after idleing in the driveway (cold start~ 45F outside temp) for 60 seconds.

Thanks in advace for your help.

B

This is actually very normal in many climates, depending on temps and humidity.

BCParker said:

I searched, and found a few answers, but thought I'd ask again.

1997 4.0L after starting cold, water drips from the tailpipe and also from the hole in my muffler. once the exhuast heats up enough only a few drops of water will come out along with copious amounts of steam. the tailpipe is wringed with carbon also. the exhaust doesn't really smell too much, just a little rich maybe?
anyway, I know a little water is normal but when is it too much? my check engine light is not on and the only code I get is 55-end of codes- exhaust manifold and back was replaced before I bought the vehicle, along with one of the o2 sensors ~50,000mi ago, but the was re-used*along with its o2 sensor.

spark plugs and wires are old, but the engine runs smooth, what all should I check and where do I start?

this photo is after idleing in the driveway (cold start~ 45F outside temp) for 60 seconds.

Thanks in advace for your help.

B

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Looks normal to me.

Is this something that started quite suddenly? There is the *possibility* that it's a blown head gasket. Are you loosing water from the radiator? If so, run the car for a few seconds only from cold, then pull all the spark plugs, to see if one or two of them are wet.

delete

grahamtwatson said:

Is this something that started quite suddenly? There is the *possibility* that it's a blown head gasket. Are you loosing water from the radiator? If so, run the car for a few seconds only from cold, then pull all the spark plugs, to see if one or two of them are wet.

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this is something I've only noticed recently, but it could just be the cold weather. now that you mention it, I AM losing coolant from somewhere, but have not been able to find the leak. it's only a few drops a day,and only when everything is cold. all hoses look ok and feeling around the waterpump I come up dry.
Also, I do have quite a bit of oil on the head and the block, but I think that may be a valve cover gasket. oil never drips to the ground.

spark plugs and wires could use replacing anyway, so I'll check into that

thanks.

gas milage has been suffering lately too, which makes me think this might not be normal.

If you were leaking coolant due to a head gasket, you would get a greasy film on the rear window of the vehicle. You can normally smell a sweet smell coming from the exhaust.

The most common cause of slowly loosing coolant is a old worn out radiator cap. They should be changed every year or so. Use 16lb cap.

The second most common is a water pump that is leaking out the weep hole in the bottom. If it is, you should be able to see a residue on the timing chain cover.

no greasy film on the window or burning coolant smell, smells a tiny bit like unburned gas, but no smoking or anything.

The radiator cap is pretty old. I can still read the 16lb rating on it but the center part (copper?) is green and corroded. the leaking coolant is hitting the splash guard and dripping out a hole on the pass side. I'm glueing a mirror to a stick right now and charging a flashlight so hopefully I can find where the coolant is coming from.- it only seems to leak when I don't have the time or the tools to looks for it.

thanks again, gotta wait for it to cool down and the glue on my new tool to dry and I''ll go looking for it.

B

Though coolant loss is not normal, having water come out your tailpipe is normal. What happens when you burn gasoline (for the sake of argument its C[sub]8[/sub]H[sub]18[/sub]). You end up with CO2 and a lot of H2O. Water vapor can condense in the muffler and if you don't make a lot of long trips water in the muffler won't vaporize and will rust the muffler. Drill a SMALL (won't affect sound) hole in the muffler to let it run out.

bajacalal said:

Though coolant loss is not normal, having water come out your tailpipe is normal. What happens when you burn gasoline (for the sake of argument its C[sub]8[/sub]H[sub]18[/sub]). You end up with CO2 and a lot of H2O. Water vapor can condense in the muffler and if you don't make a lot of long trips water in the muffler won't vaporize and will rust the muffler. Drill a SMALL (won't affect sound) hole in the muffler to let it run out.

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I know water is a normal product of combustion, I was just wondering if this was an excessive amount.

also, my muffler already has a decent hole rusted in it from the outside.

normally, If I start the jeep, I drive it until it's warmed up completely but with gas prices lately it's been seeing a lot less action and a lot shorter trips.

my plan: clean everything in the engine compartment as best I can, start cold and look for coolant/oil leaks (since it seems to happen only when cold), then take her out to the highway and let it loose through all the gears to try to clean things out, then take it back home and check for leaks/damage again.

any advise on cleaning up the engine compartment? I'd like to take a pressure washer to the block/head, but that's not really possible.

Well I live in OH and I'm sorry to say if you are seeing steam in OCT and leaving a
wet mark on the driveway that is not normal. Is it slightly cranky starting? Small leak in the head gasket...

condensation?

gjxj said:

Well I live in OH and I'm sorry to say if you are seeing steam in OCT and leaving a
wet mark on the driveway that is not normal. Is it slightly cranky starting? Small leak in the head gasket...

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Starts almost instantly, no problem there. what concerns me is that there seems to be MORE WATER THAN NORMAL in the exhaust. after letting it idle until the exhaust is hot and then shutting down visible steam continues to come out of the tailpipe for almost a minute afterwards. (like a smoking gun)

The only leaks I can find are from the valve cover gasket, coating part of the head and block with oil. the coolant leak (that I can't find) is very small, I would say less than a pint in the last two months, and is very irregular, just a few drops on the ground when i shut off the engine before it warms up completely. I had no cooling issues all summer long or last week on a 4 hr trip at 75-80mph.

would a small leak in the head gasket be visible on the outside?

what are any and all possible causes of excess water in the exhaust, and how do I investigate them?

Thank you all for your help and input, I will continue to investigate based on your suggestions, but since the engine runs beautifully, I may just be paranoid.
edit: If I remove the splash guard to get a better look underneath will I be able to put it back on? it looks like a PITA.

OK, if you did have head gasket leak the pressure differential between the coolant system and your combustion chamber(s) would force 'hot' gases into the coolent system during normal operation. During the cool down period that pressure differential reverses and you might get coolant in the combustion chamber(s).

That being said, the best way I know of to tell if you have a leaking head gasket, is to examine your coolant. The coolant will have a white appearance and have some 'film' floating on the top of it. Your next bet is to examine your oil, if it has an emulsified appearance that is an indication of coolant in the oil. . . . What was said about having an oil film on your rear window is also a good indication.

As to your loss of coolant, my bet would be on your radiator cap. Once that spring retainer weakens you will lose coolant, and any inline engine has a bit of a tendency to run 'warmer' than v-block engines. Which inturn leads to higher coolant system pressures. Radiator caps can be very sensitve to these higher pressures. Change your cap, and that should solve yor h20 loss.

But, my vote is that your water in your exhuast is that it's normal. I rebuilt and stroked my 4.0 and there is copious amounts of water in the morning when everything is still cold. I don't see why yours would be any different. Don't worry.

This is exactly what my jeep does (with the steam) and what it did before I put a hole in the lowest spot of the muffler and I know I have no coolant loss or head problems. It was about the same amount of water and it did it in California...not usually 45 here. On misty mornings with lots of dew there would be exhaust water. Whenever I start it and its cold enough for your breath to steam the exhaust steams. I would look for exhaust leakage into the coolant (increasing amounts of dark material). It it of course possible and you mention the headgasket.

But the coolant residues you speak of mention coolant coming out the passenger side, can you trace it to where radiator overflow drains? This could easily explain coolant loss if your radiator cap is old and leaks into the bottle overflowing it. Anyway, its what a 2 capfuls of water spread out, I have seen cars with headgasket leaks flow coolant out the tail pipe, but for that much flow to be happening on a cold engine the leak is way bad and symptoms of head problems are very obvious. I assume it ceases completely after its good and hot. If its running rich it may also appear to steam (smoke should darken though).

BCParker said:

this photo is after idleing in the driveway (cold start~ 45F outside temp) for 60 seconds.

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Looks perfectly normal to me.

The coolant loss *isn't* tho. My '00 has required *maybe* a couple of ounces of added coolant between changes. (Aka, maybe an ounce or two a year, due to evaporative loss).

Small coolant losses are a pain to find. It could be in the radiator, the heater core, a poor hose connection, internal to the engine (head gasket, water pump).... LOTS of variables to look for.

A professional shop would put a fluorescent leak detector in the coolant, and look for it with a black light... I think.

Den

BCparker said:

any advise on cleaning up the engine compartment? I'd like to take a pressure washer to the block/head, but that's not really possible.

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Why the hell not? I do it all the time, in fact I did so this afternoon. I just wont work on vehicles that are caked in grease so... theres a self service car wash (State St. in Carlsbad) that allows you to use the hi-pressure wash on the engine and they provide a degreser for it but I usually bring my own or just use plain water. Is there somewhere like this locally for you? Theres nothing wrong with getting it wet, I try to let it cool a few mins but probably not necessary. Just don't get certain sensors wet -the TPS sensor- I cover mine when washing or water in the distributor. Some people say I'm a little obsessive because I also do my axles, suspension, transmission, etc. with the pressure washer. I've been doing this to many cars for years with no problems but my sisters Jetta did make a the old plug wires arc.

bajacalal said:

Why the hell not? I do it all the time, in fact I did so this afternoon. I just wont work on vehicles that are caked in grease so... theres a self service car wash (State St. in Carlsbad) that allows you to use the hi-pressure wash on the engine and they provide a degreser for it but I usually bring my own or just use plain water. Is there somewhere like this locally for you? Theres nothing wrong with getting it wet, I try to let it cool a few mins but probably not necessary. Just don't get certain sensors wet -the TPS sensor- I cover mine when washing or water in the distributor. Some people say I'm a little obsessive because I also do my axles, suspension, transmission, etc. with the pressure washer. I've been doing this to many cars for years with no problems but my sisters Jetta did make a the old plug wires arc.

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Oh I've got a pressure washer, I just thought it'd royally F up any sensors or electronics/wiring. besides the TPS what else do you avoid? I'm kinda worried about blasting a hole in something not metal. I know I can't hurt the block itself, but I have a lot of wiring that looks sensitive to moisture.-

maybe I'll give it a shot. beats using paper towels and a toilet brush.

Thats the only thing I avoid on my Jeep, just make sure the dist. cap vent isin't facing the water and go to town. Maybe I'm less worried about it because I work at NAPA parts and can replace parts cheaply there or the junkyard. I diddn't cover my TPS up this time because I got a new one recently and I sealed it all up with hot glue for this reason. I don't point the sprayer near the computer (or that side of the engine really). On some other vehicles I try to keep it out of more sensors like the mass airflow sensor. I use a fan pattern spray not, jet. That bieng said I'm taking no responsibility here. Connectors are supposed to be the weather resistant variety but I don't spray stuff that isin't dirty.

bajacalal said:

I use a fan pattern spray not, jet. That bieng said I'm taking no responsibility here.

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I won't hold you responsible hasta

I do want to seal a few wires up before I go to town though. I've used the pressure washer on almost every inch of the jeep before, just never under the hood.


BTW: as to the original problem of water in the exhaust, I'm writing that off as normal- once things are clean I'll start working on finding leaks(I get the feeling I'm gonna find a few new ones)

Thanks for all your help.

-B